Ep. 99 Unlocking the Secrets to Fulfilling Relationships with Michelle Hoffmann

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. For this episode, I got to sit down with relationship coach Michelle Hoffmann to discuss the profound intricacies of forming and maintaining healthy relationships. We delve into the importance of understanding and learning from life's messes to fast-tracking personal growth. Michelle narrates her journey from observing social interactions as a social scientist to becoming a relationship coach after she experienced her own personal loss.

[00:01:04] She shares invaluable insights into aligning core values, communication skills, and the importance of being relationship ready. The conversation also covers techniques for reigniting the spark in long-term relationships and emphasizes the significance of developing a strong relationship with oneself. This episode also provides a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone looking to improve their romantic and personal relationships.

[00:01:30] Michelle's journey from widowhood, soul parent, and single to profound insight into human dynamics has been transformative. Having experienced the depths of loneliness and the highs of finding love, building a life, navigating loss, she now empowers others to embark on their own journeys to love and genuine connection.

[00:01:51] Through a simple process born from her own personal experiences and expertise, Michelle has helped countless individuals transition from loneliness to love.

[00:02:29] Hi, I'm Michelle Sims, your host. Of the beauty in the mess called Unlocking the secrets to fulfilling relationships with Michelle Hoffman. So without further ado, let's dive right into today's conversation. Hi, Michelle. Welcome to the beauty in the mess. I'm so glad to have you with me here today. Oh, thank you so much for having me here. Life does get messy and to understand the beauty in it is really the way to enjoy our one precious life, don't you think?

[00:02:58] I do think and I think it can also help us go faster because people share their messes and how they got through them. And I think it helps without having to go through it yourself. Sometimes you can learn from them.

[00:03:12] Right. That's the value of being in a group because and like this listening and seeing where people are at in each chapter of their lives and how they got there and also seeing how they are moving forward to each chapter in their life and love life, according to me.

[00:03:34] And you can learn from one another so that you don't run into the same obstacles and pitfalls. So you don't have to experience yourself. You can go ahead and learn from them and go, oh, I'm not going to fall into that trap. I'm going on my own path my way. And it works. Exactly. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to share these kinds of stories so that we know what not to do as well as what will work.

[00:04:02] Exactly. If you think about life, we all either walk into or stumble into all sorts of messes. So it's great if you can avoid a few, you know what I mean? Learn from somebody else and avoid a few of them. So well, then that expedites your growth and your ability to achieve your goals your way. Nice. Exactly. It's a gift that you're sharing. So thank you very much for having me on the show. I'm very honored to be here.

[00:04:28] Thank you. I absolutely love having you. So thank you for coming. I know you're a relationship coach, among other things, an author, many things. But before we kind of dig into some of that, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing some of your personal journey. Like what led you down this path to become a relationship coach? Yeah, screech halt because I didn't even know this was a job.

[00:04:53] It's not like I was going to school to become a relationship coach. Life had some interesting and messy twists and turns for me. So come with me to the Wayback Machine and I will tell you the story. Ever since I was little, I actually spent a lot of time becoming a social scientist, which I ultimately was a social scientist at Stanford University.

[00:05:20] And what I didn't realize was that I have been watching the interactions between people throughout my life. I watch what works. I watch what does not work. I observe what motivated that behavior, what made them think that was a good choice. Speaking of messes, repeating negative relationship patterns, which we all tend to do.

[00:05:45] There's a philosophy that we tend to find what we're familiar with, even if it's not what we want. We go with what we think we know. And it might look different at first and then you go, I'm in the same negative relationship pattern again. How do I break this cycle? And I can teach you how to do that a little later. But back to me. Well, this is about me, right? Yeah.

[00:06:11] So I was looking and seeing what works for people and what doesn't work for people. And what worked to create enduring, everlasting, loving relationships, despite tumult, even in those partnerships. And then I was wondering, why isn't this happening for me? Because I really wanted to be in a healthy partnership more than like anything else in the world.

[00:06:37] Some people, when they were little and they blow out their birthday candles and they make a wish, they want a pony, all the chocolate in the world. They want to be a CSI agent. I've asked this question to people. I know it's so interesting. You know, a bike or whatever. I wanted to be in a healthy partnership. And it's so interesting because I could see these people would be so attracted to one another. And I'm like, well, what is it that they've got going on that I don't?

[00:07:06] I'm not pretty enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not rich enough. I'm not high up enough on the social status. What is it? And then I'd see people who were not as attractive or wealthy or smart or high up on the social status. And they would be in these healthy relationships. And I'm like, what do I not have figured out? Then it happened.

[00:07:34] I met him at the wrong dinner table, at the wrong dinner seating. And by the end of dinner, this man with the blue eyes knew that I was the one for him. Wow. I know. And it took me a little longer. That night on the dance floor, he was brave enough to kiss me. And I did what every man dreams of when he kisses a woman. I laughed.

[00:08:04] And he was brazen enough to ask, what's so funny? And I went, my whole world has changed. My life was going down the path this way. And now it's going toward you. And that's what every man dreams of when he kisses a woman, right? And that was really it. I mean, it was, we had nothing alike and everything in common.

[00:08:28] What I didn't realize until much later was that I had been developing a process of how to find the right partner for you. And so that, I mean, it certainly has been helpful for other people now in my professional life. But the two of us, we built a life together. We built a relationship together. We were there for one another.

[00:08:57] We enjoyed the pillow talk and the moments in between the highlights and celebrations of life. And we built a home together. We built a family together. And it was pretty perfect until he died. Oh, sorry. And that, thank you, that left me head of household, sole parent, and you guessed it, single. Ugh.

[00:09:26] Well, I didn't want to just curl up in a fetal position and soak my pillow for the rest of my life. It was not serving me. It was not serving the kids. And it's not how I wanted to spend the rest of my precious life. So I thought it through. And I put this process together and figured it out. And then I helped the kids figure it out.

[00:09:52] And then a friend of mine passed away and I helped his widow figure it out. And then everyone in my community was noticing this saying, hey, can you go help them? Can you help them? Can you help them? And I'm like, well, yeah, sure. But I now need like two jobs.

[00:10:10] And so I decided actually with a conversation with Guy Kawasaki at the breakfast table, the branding guru of the world, the guy who evangelized Apple Computer was Steve Jobs. I told him the story I told him the story I just told you. And Guy Kawasaki pointed his finger at me and said, that's your book. Write the book. Wow.

[00:10:36] And when Guy Kawasaki points his finger at you and says, write the book, you write the book. So I did. And Life Worth Living became an international bestselling book. And what happened then was a little bit of a surprise to me because I thought I was writing the guide I did not have as my gift to the world. And then I was going to go get jobs.

[00:11:04] And instead, people from all over the world were coming to me saying, oh, my God, you did it. You got through this. Can you help me through this mess? And of course, I would say, yes, yes. And then I'm like, but I need to go work. And eventually what people were saying was, this is your job.

[00:11:25] Please help us because you're really good at helping people go from this, you know, just landscaped, scorched of, you know, my future as I knew it is no longer an option. To living a healthy and wonderful, happy in love life again. And that's kind of what brought me to where I'm at in the coaching world.

[00:11:54] Things shifted again during the infamous pandemic. I had started dating. But as we all know, the pandemic really closed in on us. And many of us were not only stuck in our houses. We were stuck in our heads with the self-talk and the what do we do now? And in relationships that may or may not have been better when we could spend time apart as well as together.

[00:12:21] So in my story, I was doing these happy hour calls a couple times a week. And people were asking me, how are you dating during lockdown? And I'm like, oh, my God, I learned to live within the constraints like has to offer. And I was dating wonderfully because, you know, we didn't actually meet, but we could actually develop a real relationship before we met.

[00:12:51] And people on the call were like, you know, look who we're attracting online. I'm like, do not go out with that guy. He's going to chop you up before he's done with you. What does your profile say that this is who you're attracting? Would you like me to help you with that? And those were the words that changed my life again. And I'm like, oh, my God, what did I just offer to all of these people on this call?

[00:13:20] And my integrity is high. I do what I say I'm going to do. And so that was a Friday afternoon. By Saturday afternoon, I realized just helping them, you know, improve their online dating profile was not necessarily going to be enough to help them attract, keep and enjoy the right love in their lives. So I put the whole coaching art together. I put together a little program. I charged them just a little bit of money.

[00:13:47] And then they were having so much fun and it was really working. And they said, can we invite our friends? Yes. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. And then at the end of it, I'm like, OK, thank you. I did what I said I was going to do. And they were like, oh, no, no, no. We need you. Like, what? Doesn't everybody know this? Because evidently, we are not taught how to be in relationships with other people.

[00:14:12] Oftentimes now we're working so much on even that self-love that we forget that you can't be in a relationship with someone else without someone else in the relationship.

[00:14:26] So I now have become a relationship coach because I'm really, really good at helping people figure out what love means to them and who is the right person to invite in so that you can maintain your own identity and individuality and create that beautiful, intimate universe of a romantic, loving partnership.

[00:14:52] Filled with shared experiences and pillow talk and all of that inside knowledge and inside jokes. And this relationship can continue to grow and blossom while you still maintain who you are as an individual. And that's how I became a relationship coach, because now people are falling in love with the right people every single day. Wow, that's beautiful. Thanks.

[00:15:22] It really is. So are you a believer that you have to love yourself in order to love someone else first? Because to be honest with you, a lot of people say that, but I know a lot of people that struggle with self-love, but they love other people. Yeah. So I am a believer in being relationship ready. And that is a little bit different than loving yourself. Yes, you need to know who you are. When I work with people.

[00:15:52] When I work with people, we figure out what your personal profile truly is. And from that, we take a snapshot and that becomes your dating or online profile or just an understanding of who you're going to represent yourself as, as genuine, authentic you. Then what happens is you attract someone who you naturally are. And however much you love yourself.

[00:16:18] It's a very different experience when somebody loves authentic you. Because then you can't. Because then you can not only see in yourself your value, but you can see in reflection of someone who loves and adores you, your value. And it just lifts everything up. So I have a whole program ready to be relationship ready.

[00:16:41] And that's not only understanding how you can stabilize your life, but also how you can recognize other people when you dive into the dating pool who are relationship ready, rather than going out with someone who may drag you down with them so that you can co-create a partnership.

[00:17:27] That's wonderful. That's wonderful.

[00:18:10] That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Wow.

[00:18:32] So to answer your question, understanding who you are in the world and not trying to be something that you're not, but actually understanding that someone is going to adore you for actual you when you can be actual yourself and authentic. It does change everything. Everything. But too often, we're, we put on a mask or we're like, oh, I'm a shiny object.

[00:19:02] Look over here. Rather than, you know, we're trying to compete and marketing ourselves. But if you're not a partner who loves who you are, but if you'll just be who you are, whether you love it or not, you are who you are. Find a partner who loves who you are. That's the difference. Then again, you will love yourself more. Then again, you will love to see the reflection of yourself through your lover's eyes.

[00:19:26] So do you think that's the key to the genuine relationships is just knowing yourself first? I think being relationship ready is key. There's three steps and people tend to do them out of order and just hope it all lines up. But that rarely works. We know the divorce rate is over 50%. We know relationships fail all the time. If you would like the three easy steps.

[00:19:56] Yeah, absolutely. To be in the, to set yourself up for a positive relationship experience. The first step is to figure out, like you were saying, where, you know, about yourself. Where are you on what I call the lifeline of your relationship arc? And this is not just chronological age. It's developmental age.

[00:20:21] It's what potential and capacity you've achieved in your life that you would like to. And what you would like for the rest of your life. So are you looking for someone to hang out with? Are you looking for, you know, a best friend? Are you looking for someone to partner with or team up with for, to build a home, to build a family, to build a career with? Are you launching children? Are you looking for a companion? Are you looking for someone to share life celebrations and challenges?

[00:20:51] So where are you on that? Whole arc. And finding someone who's at a similar intersection, who wants something similar in life as to what you desire for the rest of your one precious life. It doesn't have to be exact. We don't need to know all the details. Otherwise, you know, where's the excitement in that? But to align that first actually makes the rest of the relationship go so much easier. And it takes the work out.

[00:21:21] The next layer is to understand what you truly value. And what values are your core values? And so I help people figure out their core value system based on how they choose to live their lives. And the important aspect of that to know is that every decision that we make is in line with our core value system.

[00:21:49] So rising those to the top definitely helps you understand who you truly are. And to anticipate the core values of the person you'd like to invite into your life helps create a picture or an image of who the right person would be to be a curious detective and learn more about.

[00:22:15] They don't have to be the same values, but they do need to be complementary. And it can work for opposites who attract, but the core value systems are complementary. And I'll tell you, I mean, it's obvious if somebody values honesty and truth or loyalty or adventure or humor, those things seem obvious.

[00:22:37] But if somebody is looking for economic security and the other person is looking for living in the moment, you're really going to need to massage that to make them match. Because oftentimes decisions are made in opposing directions for economic security and living in the moment. Because some is looking toward the future and some is only right now.

[00:23:04] And that immediate gratification or satisfaction or existence. So that's an example of how you can match core value systems up. The third layer is what people do first and only. And that's where things go sideways. But if you've got the first two things, those big priorities set up, then you go for matching up faith, family, finance, physicality, the frequency and vibration, the energy.

[00:23:33] Are you a morning person, a night person, intellect, culture, career, those kinds of things. Then you look up for that stuff. But so often people are just looking for that, that sexual chemistry. And they'll go there first. And then they just, you know, the rest of it doesn't match. So go and have fun. You know, follow the sparkly objects and have a great time.

[00:24:01] But realize it's rare that those things line up just as smoothly as if you went from the top down. Yeah, that's interesting because I think most of what I've always heard is that you should line up your thoughts on finances, your thoughts on religion. I mean, exactly what you said should be last. I've always heard that that should be first. So it's very interesting. Yep. I take it from a very different approach.

[00:24:27] And I'm telling you, it has worked every single time. Wow. So I'm also curious, do you see a difference in the age of people? Because I notice a lot of the younger folks, they don't look at anything. I mean, they don't even look at the finances, religion. And to me, they're just flying by the seat of their pants. And maybe it's that chemical attraction. I don't know. But they don't seem to be thinking of anything. They're just flying, you know.

[00:24:57] And I'm like, wow, how can you plan a future with this person when you really don't even know much about them as far as the deep stuff, right? Well, it really depends, again, where are you on the lifeline of your relationship arc? What are you looking for in a partner so that you can grow together? I, the clients who come to me, the age range is traditionally somewhere between 34. And I am so happy to say 86.

[00:25:26] Wow. And my 86-year-old is like, she sent me a picture. I said, happy birthday. She sent me a picture of her boyfriend and her in Greece. He took her to Greece for, and this picture was the two of them at lunch. That's awesome. And she said, thank you. I may have died without ever knowing what true love is like in my life. Ah. Thank you. Awesome. I know. Now, the reason I bring that up is because I also teach the art of relationshiping.

[00:25:56] So that's the name of my business in high schools. Right. And it's so great to hear how these people, now granted, these are self-selected students who are choosing to take this class. Right. And they're saying to me, because I can show them the curriculum and they'll be like, well, I said, you know, here's what I have to teach you, but this class is for you. What would you like to learn?

[00:26:23] Because I'm very good at figuring out what's going on with, you know, my audience, if it's a client or if it's the students or whatever, whoever it is, and figure out where can I up-level them? I call it a one-click pivot. I don't ask people to change 180 degrees. Where can we just do one-click pivot so that you don't revert back to your, you know, the factory setting is what I call it. We want to make it so that something that you can expand your comfort zone and confidence

[00:26:53] without going back to what we were talking about earlier of what you're familiar with, which may put you in a similar scenario that you were in before. So I told, I offered the kids, you know, what, here's the curriculum, but this is your course. What would you like to learn? It was unanimous. They want to learn the communication skills to build real relationships in real life. Wow. Yay!

[00:27:19] And it's all the same stuff, whether it's a personal relationship, an academic friend, or an intimate relationship or family relationship. All relationships follow the same pattern from chemistry to casual to committed. And when you realize that it follows that and it can spiral up, then suddenly you have an

[00:27:45] awareness of how all relationships work, whether it's personal, professional, the relationship with yourself, the relationship with your family, your community, your career, whatever it is. It's having that understanding of how relationships work, change how you approach the relationship, and, you know, increase the value that you bring to relationships and that people bring to you. And again, so great to watch.

[00:28:15] And the students get it and my clients get it. And once you've got it, it's your tool to use forever. That's awesome. Yeah, I am sitting here thinking as you're talking, I don't know how many or if any clients you've had that are socially awkward. Because to be honest, I see a lot of people with either social anxiety or they're just socially awkward. Can you help them? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[00:28:39] Because the first thing like I was like we were saying is, is what do you want your life to be looking like? That's why the ready to be relationship ready is so valuable. To understand what is it going to take for you to connect with yourself as well as with someone else? And where does that, what value does it add? Because what's it going to be worth to you?

[00:29:04] To take the risk of failure, of rejection, to make that effort to make a friend, to find a partner, to increase the value of the relationship that you have with your roommate, your teacher, your boss, your client, the person who, you know, helps you anywhere in life.

[00:29:30] So it's, it takes so much understanding. When you understand what to do, then it's easier to take the risk to do it. Okay. So does the relationship ready status apply to, I mean, is it very similar between friends and a potential lover or mate or spouse or whatever? I mean, is it the same patterns pretty much?

[00:29:59] It's the very same pattern. Wow. Everything follows from chemistry to casual to committed. Yeah, please. If you want, I'll walk you through that process briefly. So let's say you have met someone who, let's go with the, you know, an intimate romantic relationship. And traditionally people will come to me because they're looking for the right love in their lives. They stay with me because they realize they can increase the value of all the relationships in their life.

[00:30:28] So let's say you meet someone for the first time. You've caught eyes and you're meeting in real life, in the wild, out in the world, organically somewhere. But suddenly it's like, oh, and something happens because there's sparks in that connection. It's like, oh. It's like that spark. It's like that spark is actually going to change the chemistry in your body. You're going to get an adrenaline rush.

[00:30:58] You get a dopamine hit, which inspires you to ask for more of whatever that connection is. Your oxytocin goes up. And that is the love hormone or the little cuddle hormone that inspires you to reach out and connect in a social way. So when you get, and the serotonin also. So all of this chemistry rush happens and you're like, ah.

[00:31:23] And even for someone who feels socially awkward, they're going to be willing to take the risk because there is something happening here. And the risk of rejection suddenly got lower and the risk of confidence to make this connection is higher because your chemistry just shifted when you make this connection with someone. So they're in the chemistry phase of a relationship and so many amazing things happen because as

[00:31:53] you're in the relationship, you might like feel this euphoria, like eating too much chocolate or when your phone rings, you're like, is that my person who was thinking about me? Who's reaching out to me? So even a phone ringing, you know, that ding will be like, it hits it again. So that's the kind of magic that you're going to be looking for everything that's right in that chemistry phase, that honeymoon phase of a relationship.

[00:32:22] As you experience things together, you move into the casual phase of a relationship. This could be a loving relationship. It could be a friendship. It could be the relationship with the cashier as you're going through the checkout line because every relationship follows the same process. So when the casual phase of a relationship, what happens as we are mammals who like to be

[00:32:50] able to anticipate what's going to happen next? We like to know. It gives us a sense of calm and comfort knowing what it's going to be like to share this experience with someone. So let's say your person who you've connected with is now someone that you're sharing a meal with and you're going to the restaurant, your favorite restaurant.

[00:33:13] So you know where it's at, you know, the ambiance that gives you this sense of, you know, confidence and calm and security because there are fewer variables and you know that you like it and you're sharing an experience you enjoy with someone you enjoy. And the conversation is easily flowing and it's lovely. And it's like this phase is like listening to your favorite song. How many times could you enjoy your favorite song? A lot. Yeah.

[00:33:44] A lot, right? Over and over and over because it brings you to an emotion that you enjoy and you know what's going to happen in the chorus. You know what's going to happen at different points and you're going to sing along or hum along or dance along. The vibration of that connection with you and the song is going to be like, yeah. So this is what the casual phase of a relationship is also like.

[00:34:09] And you can anticipate what it's going to be and how fun it's going to be to be with this person and how happy it's going to make you. Now, there's another big thing that happens in the casual phase of a relationship. This is where your amygdala, the center of your brain, that caveman brain, that amygdala is going to look for danger. This is when it happens.

[00:34:35] And what happens is you're going to say, uh-oh, red flag. This could be a problem here. This is not someone I want to associate with. And that starts as a yellow flag because I invite you to, when you see a problem, a pitfall, an obstacle, or something that you're like, no, spending time with you is not going to be in my best interest, I would invite you to then ask open-ended questions so there's more than just a yes or no answer

[00:35:04] to clarify if you understand correctly what your thoughts and instinct is telling you. If, in fact, you realize this is a red flag deal breaker, that's a clear signal to distance yourself from that person. If you've asked the questions and they have cleared it and said, oh, no, you just misunderstood, you know, this is all very great and everything's good and we're still in complete alignment,

[00:35:33] that's the green flag go signal that is sort of like a handshake commitment that then catapults you forward into the chemistry of a relationship again. I was using this example earlier that if you're seeing someone and they are coming to pick you up to go out to dinner and suddenly you don't hear from them, this could be, you know, say we up-level relationships through repeated communication, which builds respect,

[00:36:02] which over time builds trust. But if that communication is missing, you're like, did I just get stood up? Did I just get ghosted? What's going on? But if that person puts the communication back in, reaches out to you and says, hey, I'm stuck in traffic. I'm going to probably be 10 minutes late. Calms your amygdala, increases the communication, increases the respect and the ability to trust

[00:36:31] this person that they're going to be who they say they are and do what they say they're going to do. And the way that you understand one another is still through clear and open communication. That's the handshake that goes back into chemistry again. You know, hi, I'm with someone who can actually connect and communicate with me in a healthy way, even though they're experiencing a challenge. Right.

[00:36:55] And now I know I just need to wait 10 more minutes and they will be here and we can go on with our plans as normal. Bam. That's the handshake. It throws you forward into chemistry because it connects you in a more meaningful way, which then that sparks all of the adrenaline and oxytocin and serotonin and dopamine again. So that's the spiral up. That can happen with a friend and deepening a friendship.

[00:37:23] That can happen with a study group at school. That can happen anywhere. And when someone is feeling socially awkward, which as we all know, the pandemic really made all of us a little bit more worried about making those meaningful connections. Right. But when you can do it and you know that this is the process to follow, then that increases

[00:37:49] your confidence, your self-value, your self-trust, your self-worth, and knowing that you don't have anything to lose by making and taking the risk to make the connection. So that's one way that I help people through those challenges. That's pretty wild. Yeah. Do you help couples that have been together for a while that feel like they're, you know, like it's, I don't want to say boring.

[00:38:16] I don't like using that with couples, but just it's all too familiar. Maybe can you help couples or do you? When you're sure, when you're in a partnership and you get stuck in the ruts and the routines, I think is what you're alluding to. Yeah. You've established that casual part of the relationship where everything is so anticipatable and everything is so fine that what will then need to happen.

[00:38:45] And there are several ways to do this is to catapult that relationship forward into chemistry through an adrenaline rush experience, go on a roller coaster together. If it's really, it's through shared experiences that are new to one or both of you. Okay. So even if you're getting, going to the same restaurant, try something new on the menu. Ooh, it's not really shaking it up.

[00:39:14] It's not taking a huge risk, but it is doing something new and different. If so, new shared experiences together, it can be new to one or both of you, or if you're bonding together to help someone else, that's the simplest way. If you're learning something new, experiencing something new, or bonding together to help someone else through a scenario that catapults you forward into the chemistry phase of a relationship

[00:39:43] and it refreshes everything. It sounds so simple. How you implement that is what's going to be so exciting. So you mean you could go, you and your partner could go to a charity event or something and help people together and that would set it up? I don't know why this is the first thing that comes to my mind, but if you go to a developing country and you help build a house, that is going to change everything for the both of you.

[00:40:13] You're in a new environment, you're on a big adventure, you've changed the scene, you've changed from just the everyday over, you know, digging the grooves in the hallway in the hardwood floor to creating a hardwood floor for another family who will benefit from this. So I don't know why that's always the example, the first thing that comes to my mind, because I've yet to do that, but I'm totally excited about doing that one time or many times.

[00:40:41] I mean, we definitely are philanthropic in my family and we oftentimes will create our own version of the eat, pray, love. Ours, let's see, what was the one we went on recently? Teamwork, sustainability, compassion. We went on a trip and we incorporated those three things into our trip to make a difference in other people's lives. Wow.

[00:41:07] So thus increasing the chemistry phase over and over and over again, and just changing life up a little bit changes everything. So even when you get back into your regular routine, we see each other through different eyes. That's what I was just going to say. It sounds like it helps you see them in a little bit different light. And so it sparks the interest, you know, like, oh, wow, I didn't know that about you or. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:35] To see the value that you can bring to one another and other people in a whole new way gives us a different perspective and a different lens on the value that we bring to our own relationships. And I say, you know, you maintain your own identity and your own individuality. And then there's this third entity that's greater than either of you individually that really can lift you both up.

[00:42:02] And this is the universe of your relationship where all these amazing things happen. And you can identify the value that you bring to this partnership. Other people can see it too. And it's really good. Yeah. Oh, wow. That is neat. I wanted to ask you, I know you talk about being in relationship with yourself as well. And I was wondering, and I think you phrase it as having a better relationship with your inner voice.

[00:42:31] But would you talk to us about that a little bit? What does that entail? So the relationship that you have with yourself, I wish I had the wisdom of the womb because I think this starts even before we show up in this world. But the relationship that you have with yourself is really based on bringing balance to seven things. Would you like to say seven things? Yeah. So simple. Okay. So simple.

[00:42:59] And basically, it's your ability to regulate. And especially when you're a newborn, you can't regulate any of these things. You need to rely on caretakers, parents, whoever's showing up for you to help you with it. But being able to eat, stay hydrated, regulate your body temperature, get enough rest, ensure that you're not hurt. Make sure that you have love and stimulation. There they are. That's all you need.

[00:43:29] Those are the secrets to happiness. But it's really hard to regulate them and keep them in balance. And we hope that at some point as you mature, you can learn to put those things in balance for yourself. And that's your inner voice letting you know that the data you're taking in through the world, through your senses.

[00:43:56] You know, we've got the five senses of sight, taste, touch, sound, smell. There are more. Proprioception. So where are you in space and time? And how do you move through it? You know, like the dog here. When she was in Europe, she needed to learn how to wag her tail. We needed to learn how to move and, you know, these, you know, what these little digits can do. And then we use them as we come out into the world as we know it today.

[00:44:24] And wow, it's amazing what we're capable of doing. So and also our sense of time. So we're taking all of this data in through our senses and we're pushing that against our life experience, which when you're first born is, you know, there's not a whole lot to go on. Right.

[00:44:46] But, you know, as you learn and grow, you may go, hmm, I'm feeling a certain sensation on my fingertips. And when I have felt this before, it burned my fingers when I put them on the stove. So based on the outcome I want, I don't want to hurt my fingers. I'm going to pull away. Ouch. Hot. And my emotion is going to be, I'm not going to do that again.

[00:45:12] So something as simple as bringing the data into your brilliant brain, pushing it against your life experience, knowing what you want the outcome to be and responding at that little moment in between. This is what that internal conversation is about. Now, this gets really heavy when attachment styles are formed.

[00:45:34] And there's, if you, the high level of attachment theory is if you have to, you know, call out for help to help balance those seven things in your life.

[00:45:51] And then you may learn, and it's a strategy that you adapt to make yourself feel safe, that if you call out or if you cry or if you coo and smile, you'll get that recognition. And then what happens is you learn this anxious attachment style of, if I can only be prettier, if I can only please them more, if I can be a giver, I'll get the attention I need.

[00:46:18] So these are strategies that we adapt at a very early point in our lives. Right. There's an anxious attachment style. There's also a secure attachment style, knowing that you can take care of these things for yourself. There's no one right or wrong way. And that someone will help you in the event that you need assistance. And then there's the avoidant attachment style, where you've been asking for help, but it didn't show up.

[00:46:43] And so this strategy you adapt is to protect yourself when you're feeling vulnerable. And there's also an anxious avoidant in there. There's, again, no right or wrong. But these are strategies we adapt when we're very, very young.

[00:46:59] And so I've just given you a myriad of ways that we choose to live in our lives and how we can build and strengthen our early, early relationship with ourselves or how it was formed.

[00:47:20] So when we're talking about how to increase your self-love or increase your internal voice and the conversation you have with yourself, it's valuable to know how to, you know, why are you having the conversations that you're having internally and how did that start? So write a letter to your younger self. Let them know who you are right now and literally go through.

[00:47:49] Here's what happened, which is why you behave like this, this, this, this and this. And it's perfectly OK. Then what we do is we can build on that and bring you closer to a secure attachment style. Everyone's got all the different aspects. Right. But to bring you closer and the way you do that is by working with someone who under, like myself, who understands that.

[00:48:18] Circumstance that has brought you to where you are and how to get you to where you want to be. So to be from, I call it from pain island to pleasure island or lonely to loved. It's how do you bridge that gap? And when you work with somebody or you've partnered with someone with a secure attachment style, that helps. Or work with somebody like myself who can help you become more secure, understand how you adapted the strategy.

[00:48:45] And what is the what are the few things that you just need to change and perceive a little bit differently to then increase the relationship that you have with your inner voice? And that changes everything. So it increases your self-worth, your self-confidence and how you value yourself and see the value that you bring in your relationships with others. It's magnificent. That sounds like it.

[00:49:14] Because I was thinking the whole time you were talking, you know, a lot of kids are parented by parents that don't have great skills at this stuff. So, you know, so they don't have the secure attachment when they cried, they got ignored or whatever. And and so they're trying to piece it all together as an adult, you know. So I have a hand signal for that, too. I don't know. I've got like.

[00:49:42] But this one, what you're talking about is here. We bring to the table the best we absolutely can. Oh, yeah. And the people who raised you, taught you, trained you, mentored you, they brought the best that they had to the table. And the best they had is probably was not a role model for relationshiping, as I call it. But it's based on whatever was presented to them.

[00:50:10] Go back in time through ancestries and life experience. And you're here. You have a different set of goals. So take the best of what you can from them and realize that they presented that to you at an age appropriate level. So a lot of times I'm working with clients whose parents have passed away, but they're still trying to please them. It doesn't work. Oh, wow. So realize that you're here.

[00:50:38] You have a different set of variables and you're trying to achieve your set of goals. So let's release their power over you. Don't seek approval from people outside your core value system. And then that can then set you up to realize how you make decisions to achieve your goals. And love them for who they are. I say a cat is a cat. Meet them where they're at.

[00:51:06] And don't expect them to be something other than that. Because that's my Dr. Seussian version, I realize. I was going to say, I sound like Dr. Seuss. It just happened to have all of us. That was good. But because they aren't going to change just because their title is parent or teacher or blood-related relative. Maybe what you need is, I call a love-related relative.

[00:51:33] So oftentimes we have blood-related family. And sometimes we need family related by love who we choose to invite in and support us toward our goals. So who's taught? People don't typically have the role models. They don't have relationshiping lessons until now where I'm teaching the art of relationshiping and I've got a big job.

[00:52:00] Because I'm happy to help them find the tools that they need to create the life that they barely even dreamed was possible. I just shared a video with you in the green room before we started recording.

[00:52:17] And it's like, it's an opulent experience when you are with the right person and you know how to connect in meaningful and healthy ways. Life gets so easy. It's so fun to live this way. And life is better with good love in it. So I've got a question for you. How do you keep people from going back to their default?

[00:52:46] Like you're talking about just one click away. Right. But a lot of us end up going back to what's familiar or a habit. How do you stop that? Or how do you help them? So that's through, remember we were talking about repeated exercise. Okay. And when we tend to go with what's familiar, like, I mean, it's just terrible. When somebody grows up with abuse and then they find a partner and experience abuse again.

[00:53:16] It's just devastating because they thought they were safe with this person. But in fact, they chose a model that was very similar to what they knew. Right. So when I'm working with people, we really link arms and we figure out who, and I help them create an advisory board, I call it to start with, of who is an emotional support for you.

[00:53:43] Who in your life do you have who are subject matter experts? Who in your life is an accountability partner? Who in your life will leverage their position for your success? When you understand that you are not as alone as you might think you are, it does change your confidence and your ability to reach out farther.

[00:54:05] And when you trust yourself enough, it doesn't even matter who comes in because you're going to, you know, give space between the wrong people or, you know, limit them and bring in the right people into your inner circle on what I call your relationship spiral.

[00:54:21] So when you know who the right person is for you, then you're sharing experiences together and you ask open-ended questions and you have, you be a curious detective, I call it, to continue to learn about one another. And when you see, oh my God, I've done it again.

[00:54:44] I have found somebody who is, you know, rude to others and this and that, and it's making me feel demeaned and demoral and is not valuing my input. Then that's a signal to create some distance. With respect, free them up to find the right person. Free yourself up from that to find your right person. And then when you're with someone and it's hard, oh my gosh. Huh.

[00:55:14] This was, they've been to each other for about a year and a half now. I had a client, he started out as a widower client. So I helped him move through grief and loss in a healthy way so that his grief would actually help move him forward. That's where we started. Then he's like, you know what? I'm ready. I want to start dating through the ready to be relationship ready program. We had everything we needed to develop his personal profile as well as that snapshot of his dating profile.

[00:55:45] And he was great. He's like, yep, got a date. So great. Great, great, great. And this, he took her to a beautiful restaurant and she took pictures of her food and posted it on Facebook. And she did a selfie of herself. And he was, you know, after a few dates, he's like, I can't figure out why she said she's just not ready to be in a relationship. Ready to be relationship ready, right?

[00:56:14] That happened twice. And I'm like, okay, can I help you decide on who you're going to date next? And he was like, okay. And so we did. And he went out with this woman and he comes to me and he goes, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm like, what don't you know? She is showing up for you. She is interested in you.

[00:56:43] And she is interesting because of all of these things. Everything is lined up. And he's like, oh, I don't know. I don't have to chase her. I'm like, you will when it actually matters. But you're right. You don't have to chase her right now because she's not running away. She's showing up. Who do you really want to have as a partner? Someone who's taking off?

[00:57:13] Or someone who is showing up? And he's like, okay. So they date for a few months and they even, you know, they start to share some meaningful connection. And the L word comes out. The I love you. And it's amazing. And it's wonderful. And it's beautiful. And one day there's an obstacle in this story.

[00:57:40] They were going to go to lunch and he was going to introduce her to his sister. And instead of showing up to lunch, she calls and says, you know what? This just isn't working for me. Let's break up. And he's like, what? And he called me crying. He was quite devastated. Rightly so. Rightly so. And he says to me, he goes, I'll pay you any amount to get her back. I'm like, no, that is not how I work. I do not manipulate people.

[00:58:09] I'm not tricking anyone. I'm not. No, that's not how this works. I said, what I will do is help you to be the man she truly wants and needs. But I can't make the decision for her because she is not my client. Right. He was. And I said, I'm going to tell you what I believe she needs to figure out. I don't work with her, so I can't tell her. And she broke up with you. So you didn't have this discussion.

[00:58:40] It's important to raise difficult topics. So difficult topics are not difficult to raise. I have a little hat in the hat, aren't I? I never think about it until it starts to flow out. No, I think that's perfect for a lot of people. Yeah. So if you want to know what happened, this is what happened. She spent, and I told him about how many weeks it was going to take for her to figure this out. She had been in a marriage with a very accomplished man.

[00:59:10] And he met her prerequisite of being impressive on paper and socially, but not necessarily with each other because they had not built the foundation of their relationship on the right things. Whereas my client and this woman had. And what happened was, and you were asking what happens when people revert to their factory setting.

[00:59:39] That's exactly what happened in this situation. She suddenly felt insecure that she was not dating somebody who had the right social status in his title. Oh, wow. And it took her four weeks. And that's when I just had an inkling that that's what it was going to be. I'm not psychic, even though people think I am. I'm not.

[01:00:04] I'm just very, very observant of patterns and frequencies and, you know, those things. And I've had enough experience that I can anticipate this stuff. And I might be wrong. Someday. So. I like that. I mean, I'm okay if I'm wrong. So then she calls him up and she says, you know, you are such a great guy.

[01:00:32] I really messed up by breaking up with you. And you're probably in the most incredible relationship of your life. But I have never been as distraught and unhappy without you. And I've never been happier than I've ever been when we are together. Wow. And not only do I know that, but my family knows it. My friends know it. My kids know it.

[01:01:01] So if there's any inkling chance you might take me back, can we please get back together? And you know, in an instant, you took her back. And they opened up difficult topics and difficult conversations. And they set the groundwork to have a strong foundation of a brilliant relationship.

[01:01:27] And they are living happily ever after doing all the things that they both love to do. And oh, my God. It's and now he can chase her all he wants. And she loves it. I bet. Sounds like a perfect match. It's a perfect match. I was thinking as you were speaking, and I don't know. So that's why I'm asking. But is divorce very similar to being a widow in the respect that I mean, you're going to

[01:01:56] grieve it, of course, especially if you're the one that was left. So widowhood is very different than divorce or being on the heels of heartbreak or never having been in a relationship like that at all. They each have their own complexities to that. But there are grieving widows and widowers. There are relieved widows and widowers. I realize that. Yeah. In divorce, what we tend to grieve.

[01:02:25] And so the grieving process, it's grief is complex. It's ambiguous. It's complicated. It blurs your vision when you're trying to drive. Grief will slam your head against the wall, drop you to the kitchen floor, put its foot on your neck and prevent you from breathing or seeing your future. Wow.

[01:02:49] And if you just invite grief in to have a cup of tea and a seat at the table and identify what grief holds so it doesn't have a hold on you, but rather honor what you treasure so that grief can help move you forward. That's in a nutshell how I help people move through grief. Whether it's grief of loss, like in being a widow or widowhood, widow or widower, or if

[01:03:17] it's the grief of the loss of the relationship you thought you should have had as in divorce. So grief is grief. It's a different type of grief, but there's a distinction between divorced and widowed and widower. Right. Or just on the heels of heartbreak, like I said, or not having been in that level of a

[01:03:43] relationship because you didn't have the role models or the right person didn't show themselves or you didn't know how to find the right person or what to do to let them know you're the right one for them. So they're each different, but they can come together in how you move through the process

[01:04:04] to help grief move you forward and help you figure out what is true love for you and how to find it, bring it in and enjoy the right love in your life. I think I answered your question of that. Yeah. And I knew obviously they're different because the person is gone when you have a widow or a widower, but I just wondered if the grieving, you know, that portion of it was kind of similar.

[01:04:34] And it sounds like in a way it is a little bit. Well, it's very different circumstances. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because, you know, there, you may still have someone to co-parent or to show up. Right. Whereas in widowhood, we got to make all the decisions all the time. Now it's a whole different world. If the person you're co-parenting with or who you've divorced is not someone you want to do

[01:05:03] those things with, then you need to create a relationship that it works for that situation. And I was just on a call with a client who were thinking, literally, it makes her sick to her stomach. She can't digest whatever this ex-husband presents to her. And they are figuring out a way.

[01:05:28] So what I'm helping her with is to increase her self-confidence, self-worth, self-trust, self-value, so that he can't take it away anymore. He can't because it's not his to take. And he doesn't have the power to make her feel that way anymore. That's great. Oh, thank God. Right? So there's good and bad.

[01:05:54] The children still have two alive parents who can be supportive to them and who they then can use as mentors and role models. But we need to find a way to connect with someone who made a significant impact in our lives. Wow. That sounds like a difficult situation. I don't know divorce. I help people through divorce, but I haven't... I think it would be a nightmare.

[01:06:22] Marriage was a very good experience for me. It was a great institution. Amazing. But different people have different ways of being in love and in relationships together. And I cannot imagine trusting someone with my everything and then being on the opposite side of an attorney's table from them with vengeance.

[01:06:48] I think in many ways that has to be worse than loving someone so much all through life and the shared experiences that you are blessed to share with. I mean, in my situation, my late husband's last words were, I love you. Oh, wow. On the day he died, he and I know he really lived. We got all of it. It was just not long enough. Right.

[01:07:17] And now I'm in love again. I was sharing with you. I'm in my new home with my boyfriend. And we are very happily in love. And so you can... Someone did tell me, I needed to hear at the time, you can have more than one soulmate. Yeah. And that was important for me to hear that gave me that inspiration that I could, you know, go find him when I didn't have it on my own. And now not only do I have it on my own, I help other people.

[01:07:47] It's so... I have the greatest job in the world. It sounds like it. I do. Yeah. Because I get to hear when people go from lonely to gathering data and figuring out who they truly want to invite in to share a seat on the couch to watch Netflix with so they're not doing it alone. Even something as simple as that.

[01:08:09] And then go out and find that person, which dating should be like the funnest thing ever to go and meet people and learn what makes them tick. And, you know, go if they're... Whatever their interest is, go and experience what makes them spark and shine and share yourself with them. It should be so much fun.

[01:08:32] And instead, we tend to put ourselves in risky and dangerous situations because we don't know how to date and we're doing it wrong. And then it's no fun and we lose our self-confidence. We feel like we're less than and that we're not worthy enough of having a great partner. And like we should just... Better off alone. That's not true.

[01:08:56] You deserve to have a really healthy love life and have someone who wants to go to bed with you, wants to wake up with you, wants to share every moment in between with you. And it's so good. Because life is better with good love in it. Absolutely. And I don't think you could say it any better than that. That's pretty awesome. I want to be respectful of your time. And so I want to ask you just a couple of things.

[01:09:25] And one is if you want to tell us more about your coaching programs. Sure. Your listeners are welcome to go to theartofrelationshipping.com. That's my website where you can see that I help people in personal and professional relationships. At theartofrelationshipping.com, you can even click on Speak with Michelle and put some time on my calendar. And at theartofrelationshipping.com, schedule some time with me.

[01:09:55] I've opened up a few slots so that your listeners can spend some time with me. And I'm happy to help you understand how to go from lonely to love and increase the relationships that you have in your entire life. So theartofrelationshipping.com. Speak with Michelle. It's easy as that. That's perfect. So would you want to tell us a little bit about your books? My books, I wish I had them on hand, but we just moved.

[01:10:23] So they're in boxes still. So I'm pretending to lift Life Worth Living, A Practical and Compassionate Guide to Navigating Widowhood and Soul Parenting. New Manage, that's the personal stuff and how to be relationship ready. And I've got a whole Ready to Be Relationship Ready program that matches that. New Management Blueprint, I wrote because all of my books,

[01:10:46] all of the people in my professional life who I had coached to become, you know, the career that they wanted and to become, you know, exactly what they wanted to be professionally. They're like, congratulations on the success of the book. When are you going to write the book? We've been asking you to write. New Management Blueprint is my love letter to them and to you. It's how to spark talent to night winning teams, creating valuable results.

[01:11:13] So that organizations tend to purchase that book for all of the management teams in their organization. And I have a new book coming out. Plus, a publisher has just picked it up. It's not even been finished yet. Wow. And it's Find Love Now, the guidebook to attract the right one to you. So all of these are available, well, soon to be released, Find Love Now, but the others are available wherever books are sold.

[01:11:43] That's great. I was wondering, I was wondering as you were talking, if you're going to start coaching people to be like you. I mean, to be other coaches. You know what? If somebody would love to learn to be a relationship coach, I would love to teach them. Interestingly enough, I mean, I did disclose that I teach this virtually at high schools. And the students are all over it. They all want to be relationship coaches.

[01:12:11] And they have gone from, you know, like hoodie up and uncertain and only answering questions when I call on them to beautiful. I mean, I know I'm not supposed to say that, but I'm just like, oh, my God, you're gorgeous. Because it comes from the inside out when they're confident and feeling good about not only who they are, but knowing who they can become.

[01:12:40] They tend to be the ones who are like, yep, I want to teach this as well. So I invite them to help me refine the curriculum so that they can participate in coaching. And if somebody would like to be a relationship coach, I would be happy to coach you into being a relationship coach and enjoy the career that I'm enjoying. Because when people call and say, I love you because I'm in love with the right person. It's awesome.

[01:13:10] And I get to go to a lot of amazing weddings now. That's neat. And I see it so far beyond even couples because, you know, families need coaching. Friends need coaching. I think of the families with adopted children and the whole attachment issue. You just see all kinds of needs out there. So it's so fun when you can identify where the insecurities are and then support them.

[01:13:39] That's like it sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. And you feel like that's teachable to other people? It's not just a gift that you have? Absolutely. My all of my clients have it because now they're in healthy, loving relationships. True. Every single one of them. So, yeah, it's that's a perfect testament. So I have a question for you. Sure. What has been like a big aha moment in our conversation today?

[01:14:07] You know, like I said, to me, I think learning how to kind of make peace with yourself and that relationship with yourself is huge. And but like I said, I can see the need everywhere. So as you're talking, there's a lot of little ahas. It's like, oh, wow. You know, I could see where you could use it here. You could use it there. Yeah. I just see a lot of a lot of benefit to all of it. And I can see you glowing from all of it, too, which is beautiful.

[01:14:37] Yeah. It's true. So to have a gift and be able to share it with other people and then have that. I don't know what you call it, but that sense of. It's not just fulfillment. It's got to be just happiness and gratitude and come back to you. It has to be awesome. It's a very, very fulfilling. Yeah, it's true. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome.

[01:15:05] Is there anything we haven't covered today that you want to make sure that you talk about? I think we we've covered quite a bit of ground. The next step would really be for someone to get the clear signal that it's time to reach out to someone like me. And you can certainly reach out to me at the art of relationshipping dot com. Right.

[01:15:28] Because knowing that you deserve to live in an amazing relationship with yourself and others is is important. You are valued and you are valuable. And if you need my assistance to customize whatever your situation is, go ahead and put time on my calendar. That's awesome. Well, I appreciate all your wisdom and your experiences. I loved hearing the stories, too. So thank you for sharing all of that with us today.

[01:15:59] Thank you very much for having me. It's an honor to be here. Oh, thank you. Well, thank you very much. I learned a lot today. So thank you. Reach out for any reason. Take care. OK, bye bye. As we wrap up today's episode, I hope Michelle sharing her knowledge, experience and wisdom has helped you in some way. I thought it was really interesting how Michelle learned that online dating can actually foster real relationships before the two people meet in person.

[01:16:28] You know, many times we hear quite the opposite. So that was fascinating for me. Michelle also felt that having a positive relationship with yourself before you enter into a relationship is foundational. And it's your first step in becoming relationship ready. I also thought it was intriguing how she spoke about figuring out what your long term goal relationship wise is. First, on your journey to becoming relationship ready. Make sure the person you find aligns with that.

[01:16:56] Then determine what your core values are and find someone with similar core values. And then lastly, make sure you're aligned with things like politics, religion, family values, etc. She said it usually works out if you follow the steps in this order, which I thought, again, was very interesting because I had always heard that one of the first things you should do is make sure you align with somebody with politics, religion, family values, etc. And she said that's actually the last step.

[01:17:25] Very intriguing. But she said it for most people. This works every time. So that's great. I hope you enjoyed today's show. I would love to hear from you. As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend.

[01:17:50] And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.