Ep. 149 Why Having It All Still Isn't Enough with Michelle Dovey

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. Today's conversation is going to challenge you in the best way because we're talking about something that a lot of women feel but don't say out loud. That quiet sense of, I have a good life so why don't I feel fully alive? My guest today is Michele Dovey. She's an artist, the creator of the Naked Man Project, and someone who is helping women, especially in midlife, look at the parts of themselves that they've been taught to hide.

[00:01:01] After her own journey through perfectionism, shame, and suppressed desire, Michelle made a bold, unconventional decision that became the catalyst for her transformation and ultimately her work today. The conversation isn't about fixing your life, it's about telling the truth about it. We talk about what it means to feel numb even when everything looks right, how high-achieving women disconnect from themselves, and what it actually takes to reclaim your voice, your desires, and your aliveness.

[00:01:30] This one might stretch you a little bit, but that's the point, isn't it? Hi, I'm Michele Simms, your host. I'm just a regular person who, like so many others, has faced my fair share of messes. Life hasn't always been neat or easy, but it's taught me a lot, and somewhere along the way I got deeply curious. How do other people make it through their messes and not just survive, but thrive? That started my pursuit. I started searching for stories, wisdom, and real strategies, not only for myself, but for anyone looking for a better way forward.

[00:02:00] Maybe there's a faster way, a softer way, a more human way, and maybe we don't have to figure it out alone. That question is what led me to this podcast. I believe we grow through shared stories, lived wisdom, and the beautiful mess of being human. So welcome to the conversation. I'm so glad you're here. Please join me for episode 149 of The Beauty and the Mess, called Why Having It All Still Isn't Enough, with Michelle Dovey.

[00:02:27] So without further ado, let's get into it. Hi, Michelle. Welcome to The Beauty and the Mess. I'm so glad to have you with me today. Oh, me too, Michelle. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Now, I know you're an artist and a creator of the Naked Man Project, but before we kind of dig into that stuff, I was wondering if you would tell us some of your background story. Like, what's a pivotal moment that kind of led you down the path of where you are today? Wow.

[00:02:54] And I know that's a broad question, but I mean, just like one pivotal moment or whatever you want to share. I can share. Like, just at the very beginning, I'm an artist, and when I was 14, I discovered Michelangelo, the drawings of Michelangelo, and I started copying them voraciously, and they were just, they gave me a lot of joy. But I had a moment where one of my friend's mum said to me, why are you drawing naked men? And I had no, I wasn't aware that I was drawing naked men.

[00:03:23] I just thought I was drawing Michelangelo. So that memory just completely got buried. But there was a moment just a few years ago where I was in the middle of divorce, and I took myself to Florence to draw my favorite things, which was Michelangelo. And I ended up doing a drawing of a statue, and in the middle of the drawing, there was a blank space where his genitals should have been. This was just a statue, just a classical statue in the middle of an art museum.

[00:03:51] And I was just like, wow, maybe something happened in that moment. Back when I was 14, something to do with the messaging that I got around nudes, and even though they were kind of like one of my favorite subjects, I felt like I couldn't really explore them because of something around the taboo nature of the male nude.

[00:04:11] So you felt like they were kind of restricting you as a younger person, like you shouldn't be drawing that? Yeah, I think what I got the impression is that maybe I was taught that there were some things I should look at and some things I shouldn't look at. And the things that I shouldn't look at, I literally just blanked. And then maybe I was thinking, did I really just not look at that part of the statue? Did I just look all around it?

[00:04:40] So that's the moment that I decided to give myself permission to draw 100 men and 100 naked men. And just to give myself permission to look at everything. That's how it kind of, that's how it came about. So what, I have to ask, what was that experience like? Was it, I mean, for most of us, I think it would be uncomfortable, intimidating. I can think of a lot of adjectives, but how was it for you? Yeah, 100%. It was intimidating.

[00:05:07] It was, I was fired up by the idea of it as a gift to myself. But in the actual doing of it, I had a lot of resistance from my friends and family. That was challenging. I also, you know, in the actual room, I didn't have so much of a problem. I didn't, it wasn't so much of a problem finding men to draw. But I came up against a lot of my own, what would I call them? Challenges, challenges, personal challenges.

[00:05:35] Like, well, well, a big one was that I had, that I was in charge and that I didn't really, couldn't really remember another time where I'd been in. Like there was the naked man. There was me. And all I had to do was say, could you please, I'd like you to sit like this. He was saying, how would you want me to sit? And I'd say, I'd like you to sit like this. But that question always threw me. And I, and in the beginning, I didn't really ask for what I wanted. I was just sort of saying, oh, we'll just be comfortable or just something comfortable.

[00:06:06] But I got to a point where it turned out to be, that was my learning edge. Like, could I really ask for what I wanted? And could I really just try and keep going, keep arranging him until I found something that was really kind of aesthetically satisfying for me? So, so many challenges. Do you think that was the big lesson you got out of that? That was just that you had the right to be in charge maybe, or you had the. Yeah, I had to, yeah, I had to own my power.

[00:06:36] That was new and get over that kind of like, just understand that that didn't make me a power freak. That meant that I could hold the boundaries well. He was expecting me to be in charge. So if I wasn't in charge, it was just confusing. Basically, there was a lot of confusion while I was getting to grips with, yeah, being in charge and then asking for what I wanted. And when I did ask for what I wanted, I had a huge amount of joy and it transformed the

[00:07:06] experience into what I felt was successful. That was a successful, it made it a successful session as opposed to the times I didn't ask. So I really got to learn that my joy was a lot, was based a lot on me asking for what I wanted. That was kind of a major life lesson. That is a major life lesson. Yeah. Yeah. What else do you think? I mean, did that fundamentally change your life going forward, do you think?

[00:07:35] Oh yeah, it really has. It was because I discovered that the, quite a lot of the, well, first of all, the thing that I really wanted to do was the thing that I was told I shouldn't do. And so in sort of turning towards the thing that sort of scared me, it was the thing I, was the thing that sort of freed me. And I've learned how much, how much energy and freedom and liberation there is in all of these taboos that we have around our bodies and power.

[00:08:04] And money's another one. So it's helped me, it's helped me embrace the fact that I really like, I like that edgy area. I like, I like opening it up and shining a light on it. And I discovered that there's so much healing in, like the guys that I drew felt seen and they felt in the being seen and drawn that that helped heal some of their body shame.

[00:08:31] And I got to hear from them how much, how powerful it was to be seen. And that some of them said it was the first time they really felt like they had been seen. It helped me, it just helped me realize how much of all of this stuff is, is what we kind of long for as humans. You know, the freedom, the freedom to be seen, permission. And so it's really, I've kind of taken, even though I am still an artist, I've also developed this body of work really about around permission.

[00:09:00] And I call it a wealth mindset. I'm kind of stepping into being a wealth mindset coach. So, which has to do with how much we, how much power we have to give ourselves permission and follow the course that we really want to. Yeah. It's interesting because as a woman, we all know we have a lot of body shame and you don't really think of men dealing with the same thing.

[00:09:26] That's one thing I picked up from what you just mentioned is that men are going through the same thing. It sounds like. Yeah, hugely. They have a huge, well, I can't not, I can't speak for everyone, just the conversations I've had, but it was really consistent theme. A lot of, yeah, different, different, but the same. The body shame. I don't think anyone escaped that one. I think that's more of a cultural issue rather than something that we only have as women.

[00:09:56] Right. I'm just saying to open our minds that men are going through the same thing. That's enlightening, I guess. It's interesting, isn't it? It is. It's not the picture that we have at all. And even, I suppose, the amount of times, I don't know, I asked a lot of people if they'd model for me and a lot of people were like, no, absolutely not. And I guess that's not what you necessarily think of. You'd think, oh, guys must be like desperate to take their clothes off. But like, no.

[00:10:26] I am surprised if they felt body shame that they did, that they went ahead. I mean, that's a lot of bravery. There was so much courage. And actually, it appealed, the invitation to model appealed to a lot of guys that were on their own journeys, healing journeys. So it was kind of like something that they often were terrified about, were resistant to, but then felt amazing when they did it. So yeah, it was something that they often chose to do as part of their own healing. Yeah.

[00:10:56] And another thing I, at least I feel like I picked up on was you said you struggled at first kind of being the boss or the authority figure in the situation. Yeah. But do you think that's because I feel like I'm in a very male-dominated company, very male-dominated field. And a lot of times I've, I feel invisible. Like I can say something and it doesn't even register. The guy beside me can repeat what I just said. And he's a genius.

[00:11:24] So I just wonder if part of that was, if you came from a similar background where you'd previously felt kind of invisible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And well, definitely felt, I was definitely a little bit silent, felt a bit silent. So I remember one situation. I remember something that came up was that sometimes the guys thought that what I was actually asking for was sex. Oh, wow. So they thought the invitation to be drawn was actually an invitation to have sex.

[00:11:54] So I remember someone once saying to me like, oops, oh no, this way. We don't have to worry about video. Like it was a bit like, I can't remember what the question, it was a bit like, maybe it was like, we're going to have sex before or after. And I was like, we're not going to have sex at all. And I was telling this to a friend of mine later. And I was angry about it actually. And he was like, oh, and he was sort of angry for me. And it was something like, like, how dare they think it's all about them?

[00:12:22] But it's kind of like, that's, I had to assert myself to make it all about me. And like, it was really in the end all about, it really was all about me. It was all about me giving myself permission, which was the opposite of me giving them any sort of authority. It was such an interesting. It is. It was, I was wrestling with it and I had to, in the end I drew 70 men and it was well into

[00:12:47] like the twenties or maybe thirties before I really got this down. Like it, I got, I had a lot of reps and. Did you ever feel unsafe or did you have someone there with you? I didn't feel, I didn't feel unsafe, but I was in an apartment building and there was a reception downstairs and they had to give their, the guys had to give their names and photo ID just to get like, to get through security. So I never felt in any danger, but I wasn't alone in a house.

[00:13:17] It was, it was an apartment building with a reception downstairs that they had to, and I met them downstairs. So there was that kind of like public private thing going on. Yeah. And if you knew they had to ID themselves, that gives you a little bit of security. They had to ID themselves. And also I never modeled someone that I didn't know. What happened was I originally, when I asked everybody, three guys said yes. And then from those three guys, they shared it with their men's groups and their groups and whatever. And then I got another few and another few.

[00:13:45] So there was always this line of connection. So a lot of guys did message me on social media or whatever and say, I'd love you to draw me. But I was like, to be honest, I don't draw anyone I haven't got a connection with. If I know you, we're good. But if I don't know you from Adam, then sorry, you're not the one. That answered my question. I was going to say, were the men that were expecting sex, did they, did you know them or were they strangers?

[00:14:12] But it sounds like you, you had some kind of connection to everyone. I knew them. Yeah. I mean, it was, I can, it's really interesting. It was, it is a quite a, it's a quite an intimate, it's an intimate situation. Yeah. A man is looking at me drawing him definitely could have gone to be an erotic situation. But in the end, I was just, I was really clear in the end that I just wanted to, this was really about me drawing.

[00:14:40] So it was like, well, working. So how do you help other women kind of tune into what it is that they desire? Because I feel like life is so busy, at least for me, I don't even think about that kind of stuff. I mean, I'm just, you just live in the moment. You're either taking care of yourself, taking care of a kid, working, whatever. And then you fall in bed and you wake up and you do it all over again. So how do you help women discover that?

[00:15:08] Well, even for myself, when I was in the middle of getting divorced, I also didn't know exactly what I, I didn't know what I wanted. But I remember being at the supermarket and I would like pay a lot of attention to what I wanted to eat. And that was like, what I could eat for dinner was where I really explored, like really, what would I like to eat? And like looking at everyone else's baskets and going, seeing if anyone else had anything in their baskets that I actually wanted.

[00:15:38] And I used to, I always walked around that supermarket, like up and down. It wasn't like a nice supermarket with nice food. And I would just walk up and down going, no, really? Would you like that? Or would you like that? And I've heard someone else say, it's like, well, just deciding even like what lipstick, what color lipstick would you really like to wear? Like starting really with the small things. So it's because it's kind of like a muscle. It's like, well, what would I really like? I just pay attention.

[00:16:08] Like, what would I really like to drink right now? Tea? Well, what sort of tea? And I have to sort of say to myself, what would you really like, Michelle? I have to really kind of look, talk to myself like, sweetheart, what would you really like? Can I get you something? And when I talk to myself like that, I quite often go, yeah, I quite like that sort of tea, please. It's like a game. Did you feel in the relationship that you didn't have those kind of, I don't want to

[00:16:35] say rights, but those ability, I mean, like where things kind of decided for you in the relationship? They were. Unfortunately, I was married to someone who believed that because I didn't make it, because I was like the mom and I was an artist. I wasn't making, well, you know, a lot of artists do make a lot of money, but I wasn't making a lot of money. So I didn't get the rights to, the money kind of determined the rights in our household.

[00:17:02] And so I didn't get, I didn't get to choose so much. Yeah. Interesting situation. Better? Was he so controlling that he even controlled what lipstick you wore? I mean, did he say, oh, no, no, you should wear this or that? Oh, you know what? I didn't even wear lipstick. I was like, I just, so this was like, it was just like a new adventure. I'm like, what am I now? What am I going to do now? That's amazing. Really? I want to do things now.

[00:17:30] So how do we, I know you talk about reclaiming yourself. Yeah. If we don't even know, like, what it is that we desire, how do we reclaim ourselves? How do we even get to that point? Well, I have a kind of, I wonder about this because I know that I did want a few things, but it wasn't safe for me to say it out loud. I think it's something to do with actually having spaces where you're allowed to talk about it,

[00:17:57] like explore it with some other woman in a way that's with women that you trust. I think, and that's not everyone that like the, I think sometimes it's just trying a few things. That's like a real permission game of like, well, let's try something. Or I even do things where I go to shops now. I don't really expect myself to know what I like. Every now and then I'm going on a shopping day and I just go to shops and I try on everything because I don't really know what I want.

[00:18:27] If I don't know what I want, then I give myself time to go to a shop and try on all the different perfumes and see what is it that I like even try on all the sunglasses, try on all the, whatever it is, try on as many different things, try and feel into as many different things. And sometimes it doesn't need to be a big thing. It can start small. What's what music would you like to put on? Just which song would you like to listen to while you're doing something?

[00:18:55] You're making me think of all the times we allow other people to control the situations. I saw your whole demeanor just change. It's like, oh yeah. Oh, oh yeah. I mean, it's so tough. I mean, I certainly had a lot of people telling me that they thought I shouldn't be doing the drawing project. I shouldn't be talking about it. I shouldn't be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's never ending. People's opinions. So how do you handle that now?

[00:19:25] These contrary opinions versus how you handled it in the beginning? Oh my gosh. I'm still learning. I had a friend, unfortunately, the other day I showed him some of my new work and he was like, oh my God, why are you still doing all that stuff? And I haven't really got some fast answers. I was thinking I need to get some good, just like tennis, like just hit the ball back into

[00:19:48] his court, sort of answers about, like just not, like I think that, I think where I'm getting, where I want to get to is everyone's allowed their opinion, but I do not have to pay much attention to it. It's like, I mean, I would like to say to them, it's none of your, it's none of your business and it's unhelpful, but I have to find, I have to find a kind of, I have to

[00:20:15] find a sort of gentle, fun way to say, well, I hear you, but I'm doing it anyway. I have to find a kind of fun, light, easy way of saying, I hear you, but this is what I'm passionate about. So this is what. And if he really knows you, he should know that by now, right? Or. Oh, I know, but it just seems like it really triggers some people's things, some people's

[00:20:42] kind of feelings and, or some people's of their own shame. I don't exactly know what happens, but people have some very strong opinions about what I do, but some people love it and some people really don't love it. So. As a man, I would, I could see where it might trigger some of their own body shame. They would then think, and especially if he's interested in you as more than a friend, he might think, well, now she's going to compare me to these 70 men or, you know what I mean? You don't know. You don't know. Honestly, you don't know what people are thinking.

[00:21:12] This guy is not, this guy is married to another friend of mine, but. Oh, okay. No, it's just like, who knows what it triggers in people? Like truly, who knows what's going on in anyone's head? Do you know what I mean? It's like, who knows? Who knows? How do you think art has really shaped your healing process? I mean, do you think you would be where you are today without the artwork? Oh, no. I mean, I think just even in this last project, I think art, the creative expression gives us,

[00:21:42] it gives me a container to express things. More and more, I realized that I grew up in a family where you weren't really allowed to say if you were angry or you weren't really allowed to, you're allowed to be happy and sweet and good. And I did learn to play the piano when I was a child. And I've just tuned into the fact that I always liked the really loud songs or kind of heartbreaking songs.

[00:22:09] And it makes, I wonder, it was the only way that I was allowed to express anger was in a kind of loud piano song or sadness. And art has definitely given me a place where I can express things that I maybe wasn't. So there wasn't the space to do that in my home or really in my marriage. So it's sort of, it's like giving me this whole other freedom space where I get to express myself.

[00:22:39] So how do you express your anger through the artwork? Well, I express my anger by going and playing the piano really loudly. Or actually. Oh, okay. It's not the drawings. Okay. No, no, no. It's not the drawing. I was just curious. The drawings are kind of more like the curious place, like the curious, like looking, what is going on, exploring. So that's where I got to do all of that.

[00:23:07] I mean, yeah, I don't get as, well, I don't know if I could do get or not get as angry as I used to. But it definitely helps me doing what I want to do. I don't build up, I don't build up all the resentment and all of that stuff. Do you think that, I heard you say that you felt like you had to be good. And I think a lot of us can relate to that. So do you feel like that's what led you down the path to marry kind of a controlling person?

[00:23:35] Because I feel like it can lead that way. I feel like I had the, had to be good thing. Whether I self-imposed or it was imposed on me, I don't know. But I still feel it to this day. Like if I want to confront somebody, I'm like, oh, you got to be good. Behave yourself. You know what I'm saying? I do know what you're saying. And keep it in. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:58] And I talked to my mom about this and she's like, and Michelle, she says to me, she's 75 and she still feels like she's got to watch herself. She lives alone and she's retired and she's 75. And she's like, the voice lives in our heads. So I guess that's what the voice lives in our heads. So there's not actually anyone else doing it. It's only us doing it to ourselves.

[00:24:24] That's a little bit what's inspired the work of doing the Well's Mindset Coaching is that it really comes down to how we're thinking about things. And we don't even really have to confront anybody else. It's there's a lot we can do just with giving ourselves permission in our own minds. And you know what's interesting? Something I've discovered on my own journey, talking about the little negative voice, usually mine's negative.

[00:24:50] But when you start questioning, where did this come from? Where did I get this? And sometimes some of my path, it led to someone else had said it and then I repeat it to myself. But it didn't come from me originally. And I think that was a huge aha moment for me. So have you ever gone down that rabbit hole? Like, where did this start? Where did it come from? Well, 100%.

[00:25:15] Like, how really my favorite thing in the whole world is to draw figurative painting like nudes. And it's like, where did this idea come from that I couldn't do this or this was bad? I mean, I don't have a memory of it. I don't have a memory of it. But on the other hand, there also wasn't nudity in my family. People didn't walk around naked. And no one talked about sex or bodies or anything.

[00:25:39] So I guess I got the message somehow that it was like, not something to be talked about. You know, I think that's probably exactly mine was very similar. Nobody was walking around naked and nobody talks about sex. And then you just keep repeating what you learned. You learn not to talk about it. You learn not to, I don't know, even approach those subjects. Yeah, you learn that they're all just like, shut door. Don't go there.

[00:26:09] So, I mean, it has, it's been very liberating for me to do all these drawings. And it's been phenomenally liberating. I think that's the word. And it feels so good. It feels so good not to have to honor all the shut doors. Just to be able to open all the doors and have a good look at everything. So do you think you're going to expand the project then and keep adding to it? Well, I've started doing some paintings now.

[00:26:34] I mean, I'm a painter and I'm doing these paintings and they're kind of, they're of couples. They're not explicit, but they're of couples love making, having sex, whatever the word you want to use. And that feels really exciting. It feels exciting to me to do all the things that it's exploring the forbidden. It's like just all the things I was told or sort of have ideas about not doing. And it feels great to just do them and go, let's just find out if the sky is going to fall or something terrible is going to happen.

[00:27:05] Or if it's not, because that's really what I thought. I thought the sky was going to fall if I did any of these things. But so far it hasn't. That has to feel a little awkward at first, doesn't it? Or not with a couple. You know what? I'm a professional, Michelle. Maybe that's a difference. I'm not. Well, to be honest, it's just like the joy of drawing bodies. They're not doing anything. They're not doing anything explicit. They're just lying on a bed.

[00:27:34] But it's just tender. And it's like, it's just, it's a lovely, it's lovely to be able to paint something and draw something that's not political, that's not aggressive, and it's not confronting. And it's just painting the beauty of a moment, really. Right. And trying to capture the love between them, maybe. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, well, yeah, it's just like the painting version of one of those, yeah, one of those movie scenes. That we know so well. So, yeah.

[00:28:04] I'm kind of exploring that. Yeah, that's very interesting. It's not, I mean, it's definitely not something that a lot of people do, or even, to your point, allow themselves to do. I know, I don't think I've ever seen any paintings like this before. So I just find that fascinating. I've seen political paintings. I've seen feminist paintings I've seen. But I haven't seen any paintings quite like this. So I think that's kind of interesting.

[00:28:33] Where do you think you would go from that? Like, what would be the next? Oh, my gosh. I would really like to write a story. I would like to write the story of everything. I'd like to write a book. Like how all this came to be, or? Yeah. How all this came to be, and how much joy there is in all of the things that we've been told that we can't do. Which is not necessarily joy in the forbidden, but joy in, I don't know, just if we really wanted to do something, but we got told we couldn't.

[00:29:02] But it's just, there's the possibility of going back and exploring it at some later date and potentially finding a lot of joy there. I don't know what I'm going to do. I think I'm just, I think it's just all slowly unraveling. It'll all slowly unravel, not unravel, but what's it called? Unveil. I know. Unveil. Yeah, I know. Unveil itself. I'm definitely on a path, so I just don't know what's going to happen next. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:29:32] What, the most surprising thing you've learned about yourself through this whole process? Is it just the giving yourself permission, or is there more? I guess what's most surprising about myself? Well, that you've learned about yourself, like from the person you were before to the person you are now. And I know you've learned to give yourself permission to do things that other people might think are taboo, but is there anything else you've learned in this journey that was pivotal for you?

[00:30:00] Yeah, I think it's that the things that I really, really wanted to do was kind of what I was meant to do. So I have a lot of trust now to follow my desires, and that is very new. I wouldn't have, I definitely didn't, I thought that my desires were a kind of selfish fantasy. And actually, I don't think that at all now.

[00:30:28] I think that they are like the truest, maybe a glimpse at the future, and a sense of like the guidance, the guiding system. And the more that I can step into it, step towards them, even though that's kind of usually feels a bit terrifying, the more I end up finding my true self. So I know you talked about kind of setting up boundaries with the clients that you were drawing.

[00:30:55] But as that, I don't know what the right word is, but kind of relayed into life, or you've learned to set boundaries in life now because of that? Or, oh my gosh, I mean, that's ongoing. But today, I had a very good boundary day where I was like even boundaries with my kids and who are asking for things. And I was like, no, you just, you need to go and do this rather than me kind of just rescuing everyone. And that is ongoing. I think I, I feel so great when I hold good boundaries.

[00:31:24] And I feel a bit crappy when I forget to, but that's my work. That's like daily work. Like, yeah, I'm still in the phase, especially with kids where you're trying to teach them to grow up and stand on their own. But when you have to set those boundaries that, no, you need to do this yourself. I feel bad secretly. I don't let them know, but I feel bad inside. Like I'm not doing what I should do. I'm not helping it to your point, rescuing them.

[00:31:51] Yeah, it's funny because we've been told that we should do that as mums. But as mums, we also really do know that we don't want to be doormats. Like, I guess that's one thing. It's like, I had this conversation with my daughter and I was like, I need you to be more respectful. And she was like, well, and then I kind of realized it was like, well, actually, I probably just need to say what I want more rather than, it means I need to say what I want rather than giving her so much. And it's on me, basically.

[00:32:19] Yeah, so I like it when they're respectful and I like it when they're helpful. So that means I have to hold boundaries. Yeah, and I think we also have a responsibility as a mom to make themselves sustainable, right? And that they can go out and be productive citizens of the world. Yeah. Yeah. And so, but you kind of weigh your emotions versus what you know needs to be done. Yeah, and there's a mixed message.

[00:32:46] I think there's a mixed message about mums, about women just kind of giving everything. Oh, I meant to that. And being dormant. There's such a mixed message. So we're like, we always feel like we're not getting it right somehow. But I know how, I know it feels good. So I trust more and more like what feels good? What feels good is the way other than, yeah, that's kind of my gold standard. By feels good, do you mean it gives you a sense of peace or? Yeah, like makes me feel good. Like it either makes me feel powerful.

[00:33:15] I go, yeah, great. I stood up for myself. I said no to that or yes to that. And it's like, I can trust myself. It's a kind of feeling of kind of active. Yeah, peaceful, but active. And then definitely the feeling when I don't do it. It's like, oh, oh my gosh. Like you've let yourself down in a way or? Yeah, I didn't say it. Oh, damn, I missed that moment. I didn't say what I really wanted. I ended up doing what they wanted. And now I feel a bit crappy.

[00:33:45] But it's. You call them up and tell them. Sometimes I go back to it. But in the beginning, I remember it used to take me sometimes six months to realize that I'd overstepped a boundary. But now I'm pretty, it's more like it's pretty fast. So I'm definitely. And you mean overstepping your own boundary, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I'm like you used to be, I guess. I catch it down the road. Like, wow, I really should have done this or done that. But I don't. I'm not to the point where I catch it in the moment.

[00:34:16] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, not me, not always either. It's just like, but I noticed it's getting a little bit shorter. So I'm like, OK, OK. It's OK. We're on the right way. I'm sure you're training your mind to catch it. So. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. It's such a learning. It's such a learning. Life is in general, I think. And it's amazing all the different paths that all of us go down.

[00:34:44] We learn similar things in very different ways. Seems like. Yeah, 100%. And I'm like, I don't know, I feel 53 and I'm learning these things now. So it's like, yeah, it feels like there's a lot to be learning. And that's kind of how we were raised, right? I don't know. Like you, you have to discover stuff now because it wasn't even available then. We didn't have the freedoms that these kids have today. Yeah. Yeah. I really don't. No. I think we did. I agree. And I think it's taken.

[00:35:12] I think all of the decades that I did play by the rules and was a good girl and did what I thought I did the right thing, did what I thought I should do. In a way, it's like I can. I tried it. I tried it. And it's like, okay. And now also I know I'm a good person. So I know I can go and explore all of these other things. And I know I'm essentially, I know I'm a good person. Even if I do go off and explore something, I can sort of trust myself.

[00:35:41] But I've also put it off for long enough. So it feels like, I feel like it gives me kind of the spark to go and explore other things. Yeah. That's amazing. Really? It is. I mean, to be a, because I'm just thinking of the negative voice, right? And that I'm wondering, I guess I was wondering to myself, is that how you quiet that? Or maybe you don't even hear it anymore. Oh, no, I do. I mean, I think the critical voice is with all of us all the time. That's like the mind, isn't it? Right.

[00:36:12] But now you reason with it or you just say, I know better. How do you handle it? I understand it's a function of the mind. It's just like part of, it's part of, it's part of what happens. And even if I can be having such a good day and a high vibe day, and I can wake up the next morning and feel down, probably because I had some bad dreams or some fearful dreams or I woke up feeling fearful. So I know that that's because the critical voice is going on.

[00:36:39] And I just do, I just get back to my better headspace as quickly as I can. I go on a kind of bike ride. I meditate and I do the things. I journal it out just to get back to the positive headspace. It's like, it doesn't ever stop, but I just try and track over to the good space as quickly as I can. That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:05] I think that's something we all need to remind ourselves, like to catch it happening and get out from under it. Yeah. It's tough though, isn't it? I mean, it's tough. It is. It's incessant. It is. It is never ending. But I think the more you start to question it and say, wait a minute, is this me or did this come from someone else? Is it truthful? Is it?

[00:37:31] There's so many questions you can start asking, but a lot of us just accept it as truth and go on from there. And I think that's where we falter a little bit. Yeah. When we don't. That's a great question. Is it true? I love that one. And is it, is this the ultimate truth? Is this the absolute truth? Right. I do sometimes hear, I really would like, I hear it would say something ridiculous to me and I just tell it to F off. Honestly, it's just like, I'm not even having that.

[00:38:02] I've not tried that before, but there's always a first. Oh, I can highly recommend that one. It works, I take it? It works really well. It's just like, oh, no way. I'm not having that one. Just go. Just go. So I have to ask if there's anything we didn't talk about today that you want to make sure that the listeners hear.

[00:38:29] Oh, Michelle, it was so, you did such a lovely job asking me so many questions. Thank you. Oh, thank you. No, I have a, I mean, I have a website, michelledovey.com where I have all my paintings and I also have, there'll be like the coaching workshops and coaching and all of the other information. So, and I'm on Instagram. I'm michelledoveyartist. Awesome. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask next. Yeah. That's how they can connect to you. Yeah. Oh, thank you so much.

[00:38:58] It's such a, so you're so generous with all your questions and lists, like allowing me to just go on. Oh, it's very interesting. I love hearing people's journeys. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. It's been awesome. So thank you for coming and sharing with us today. Oh, it's such a pleasure. I can't wait to, I can't wait to see what we talk about next. Awesome. Oh, thank you so much, Michelle. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye.

[00:39:27] As we wrap up today's episode and I reflect on the conversation with Michelle. Yeah, that one kind of sits with you a little bit, doesn't it? It brings up the question most people avoid. Are you actually living your life or are you just maintaining a version of it that looks good on the outside, especially on social media? What I appreciate about Michelle's perspective is that she doesn't offer easy answers. She invites you to get honest.

[00:39:52] Look at what you've been taught to suppress, to ignore, to label as too much, and maybe give yourself permission to want more. Not more stuff, not more achievement, but more truth, more alignment, and more aliveness. If this episode stirred something in you, don't ignore that. That's where the real work begins. Share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. These are the conversations that open doors. And if you haven't already, follow the beauty in the mess so you don't miss what's coming next.

[00:40:20] Michelle, thank you for your honesty and your courage in having this conversation. And to all of you listening, there's a version of you that's been waiting to be heard. Maybe today's the day that you start listening. As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to the Beauty in the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend.

[00:40:47] And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyinthemess.com. Thanks for listening.