Ep. 98 The Journey to Self-Love and Authenticity with Hana Kabele Gala

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. For this episode, I sat down with Hana Kabele Gala, a neuro coach who helps people unlock their freedom from limiting beliefs. Hana delves into her journey from being highly successful yet feeling miserable to discovering the importance of self-love and authenticity. As a business management professor and a coach, she shares her personal story of overcoming, overthinking, and societal pressures to achieve true happiness.

[00:01:03] We discuss the importance of addressing the subconscious mind through modalities like hypnotherapy, the transformative power of movement and nature, and the significance of creating and respecting personal boundaries. Our conversation highlights the holistic approach to mental wellness, combining mind, body, and environment to achieve a holistic well-being. Hana is the director of coaching programs at Leadership Associates, an international consultancy based in Vienna, Austria.

[00:01:33] She also runs her own private coaching practice, RTN with Hana, in Seattle, Washington. Hana's career spans nearly three decades in international affairs, business operations, and academia. Coaching has been a natural culmination of Hana's call to support others as they realize their potential. Her original rapid transformational neurocoaching, RTN, combines techniques deeply rooted in neuroscience, biology, and principles of embodiment.

[00:02:01] She enjoys working with overthinkers, overachievers, and people who do not believe their situation can be fixed. Hi, I'm Michelle Sims, your host. I'm just a regular person who, along with my family, have had our share of messes that we too have had to overcome. Along the way, I got curious as to how others get through their messes and even triumph over them. Maybe there's a better way, a faster way. Maybe we can accelerate our journeys by learning from someone else. That started my pursuit.

[00:02:29] I think we can all learn from each other through the sharing of our experiences, lessons, and knowledge. So join me for episode 98 of The Beauty and the Mess called The Journey to Self-Love and Authenticity with Hana Cabelli Gala. So without further ado, let's dive right into today's conversation. Hi, Hana. Welcome to The Beauty and the Mess. I'm so glad to have you with me today. Thank you for having me. Absolutely.

[00:02:55] Now, I know you're a business management professor and a coach, among many other things. But before we dig into that a little bit, I was wondering if you would tell us some of your backstory. Like, is there something in your personal journey that led you down this path that you're on today? Well, it's a really interesting question because, on one hand, I can give you a lot of sort of sophisticated, complicated answers.

[00:03:21] But I was thinking about this just the other day, and I realized we all ultimately, if we truly want to live authentic lives, we end up very much going back to who we were or where our choices or backgrounds led us anyway.

[00:03:40] So I can answer this question by saying, yes, there is a sort of a personal story that led me to become a coach, probably a teacher too. But it's funny because one of the strong themes that I have, I work with a lot of overthinkers.

[00:04:01] And it's a topic that is very dear to my heart because people who are living in their prefrontal cortex, like everything has to be processed and they're very analytical and very much into the left brain, if you will. I come from that world. That's my environment. That's my family. Your education is paramount. It's very important what degrees you have and how smart you are.

[00:04:29] And only when I was a grown up and looked around and watched other families, I was like, we never talked about how kind you are or how much grace you give to yourself or other people. It was all like, well, if you have this career and if you're this successful and if you're etc.

[00:04:50] And so I actually talked about it at some other venues, but I found myself in my 30s very much super successful and very miserable at the same time. And this disconnect was terrible and I just could not hold that. But I achieved what I was supposed to achieve. I had a PhD. I got scholarship to Oxford.

[00:05:20] I was like, all these great things were happening for me. I was working overseas and had these good things on my resume. But I was so miserable and I could not figure out life. And I don't know if you've ever had that, but I bet that your listeners might have this idea that there's a world that has some rules and that you're looking at, but you're not really part of.

[00:05:46] This association from the world was majority of my life and it was terrible and it felt so odd and hard. And so I started questioning if maybe the path that I was on that was led by my brain and my conviction that my brain is the most important organ of my body is the right one.

[00:06:10] And that's when it all started unraveling and I had to seek help and figure out how to go back to myself. And it's fun. Like when you asked me this question, I realized that that's how a lot of my clients end up in my practice, just following the very same path.

[00:06:30] Don't you think a lot of us try to, especially like if you had a rough upbringing, that you're trying to prove to yourself in a way that you're smart and that you're successful and that you can achieve just as much, maybe more so than you're trying to prove to the world that, you know what I mean? I feel like, at least from my background, comes down to that feeling not enough, I guess, that you're always trying to show that, hey, I am enough. I am important.

[00:07:00] I am smart. I am whatever it is for you. That is that magic thing. And then when you achieve those things, you still feel like you're not enough and it wasn't the solution. But we don't know that on the journey there. I feel like for me, that's been part of the journey, I guess. I agree. I feel like there's two levels to this, though.

[00:07:21] On one hand, I think that there is, we come to this world so weak, unable to take care of ourselves, we depend on the surroundings, on our surroundings to help us survive. It's a literally, it's not an exaggeration. It's a literally question of our survival to have care and love of those closest to us. Right.

[00:07:47] When we don't get it, the trauma and the utter terror is fundamental and it stays in our core. This is very real fear and discomfort that is prelingual. Right. This is something that forms very early on. And we don't even have, like the brain cannot, sort of the cognitive, the newest part of our brain cannot even acknowledge this.

[00:08:15] It's sitting in our bodies and in our subconscious. So we feel like we need the others for our survival. And what you're saying is interesting in the sense that we then try to figure out how to earn that place, that love, appreciation. And yes, you're right.

[00:08:42] Sometimes it's even convincing ourselves and we can tell ourselves that I don't even care about the others. Right. Like it's all about how I feel about myself. I need to prove. But the fact that you believe that you need to do something, be somebody in order to deserve love.

[00:09:07] That's where I think a lot of the nonverbal therapies or growth, personal growth comes in. Because the goal is to figure out that at the end of the day, you are lovable regardless of your achievements, your accolades, your, you know, how. You are worthy.

[00:09:36] You are worthy of love. You are worthy of attention. Because of who you are. Not because you helped everybody in your family financially or because you got all these degrees or because like. And I think that that goes very deeply to the core of our identities. And that's why it's so hard to get there, especially by just talking about it or thinking about it.

[00:10:06] Does that make sense? Yeah, I was just wondering something that you said, like if it was created from trauma, can we ever truly rid ourselves of it? Or is that so core to who we are because it was so young and it was traumatic? How does that work? I 100% believe that you can change that narrative. You can change that narrative.

[00:10:33] But, and this is big apology to anybody who is a practicing therapist. I have a very high regard for a small group of therapists out there who are phenomenal, fundamentally change people's lives. I am a product of one such person.

[00:10:56] But I also have somewhat, I have a fair amount of criticism of people who are in this space of therapy and coaching because I believe that they're never getting to that core. Again, it's prelingual. You can't just like convince yourself that now you're over it. Right. Right. It doesn't work because it's lodged in that subconscious and you need to access it.

[00:11:21] And so to answer your question, I 100% believe you can change it. 100% believe that. I don't think that we all have the same path to it. I'm a big proponent of nonverbal strategies. Hypnotherapy will get you to the subconscious. There are, obviously there are other sort of a, either prescribed or non-prescribed strategies.

[00:11:51] Being it, let's say it could be, what am I thinking of? Like psychotropic breathing or different, I don't know. People go on ayahuasca retreats and that opens up their minds. And it's really more the sub, access to the subconscious. I'm a big fan of embodiment and understanding sort of your body.

[00:12:12] There is a lot of growing literature showing how dance and moving your body can get you to that place where you would connect things on nonverbal level that might lead to really big breakthroughs. All these are possible. So yes, it is possible.

[00:12:34] I've seen it so many times that it is, and it is one of the most beautiful things when you see somebody who was so set, so convinced about certain things. And then I call it like the Jenga rearranges itself, right? Like it's like the Etch-a-Sketch. Oh, wow.

[00:13:23] It's like a physical change, not just a change in your sort of thinking. That's pretty amazing. Really. I mean, to actually see like a physical manifestation of that inner confidence would be pretty wild. Yeah. So, I mean, and that's along the same lines is, I know you talk about self-mastery and work in that realm too.

[00:13:47] But I'm wondering for the average person, and I can use myself as an example, but a lot of us try many different modalities or whatever you want to call it, many different methods. And we think, and we might think we've got it, and then we slide backwards. And so how do we, like, even if we attain that self-mastery, which to me has been a difficult pursuit, but then how do you keep from sliding back into those old habits and those old ways of thinking and doing?

[00:14:17] And, I mean, is it something like with the hypnotherapy that you just have to constantly repeat? Or is it, I don't know, I don't know what your thoughts are. I know some people say 21 days. I've heard 400 day effort, everything. So I don't know what your thought is on what the repetition has to be before it's solidified in the subconscious. That's such a great question. I have a question for you just to clarify.

[00:14:43] When you say sliding back, what exactly do you, like, can you give me an example so we're talking about the same thing? Sure. Say you do a lifestyle change and you're eating better, and it's meant to be a lifestyle change. It's not a diet for a specific amount of time, but then all of a sudden you just, I don't know if give up is the word, but you just start going back to those old habits.

[00:15:07] When you know better, you've proven to yourself that you feel better doing it this way, but yet you still allow yourself, and you're fully aware you're doing it. I mean, I know some people say they're not aware that they're sliding back. I'm aware that I'm sliding back, but yet I still do things, and I don't know why, because I know better. I think it goes back to knowing better, and what does that mean when you say, I know? Because I'll give you a very honest answer.

[00:15:36] I think that some techniques or modalities, as you say, work better than others. I think that the true change, what it really does is, let's say you have a baseline of your understanding of your world, your understanding of yourself, your role in the world, etc.

[00:15:59] And the baseline, when you do therapy or coaching session or any method, modality, if you will, that aims to change this, ideally, the baseline would get elevated. So that you can slide back, as you say, but it would only go to that baseline.

[00:16:28] And you can essentially build up that baseline to a point where, even if you slide a little bit, it's not critical, because you're getting better with each iteration. I think, so that's one answer. And the other is, when you have, let's say it's an eating issue or it's a lifestyle change.

[00:16:56] So it comes down to, do I believe that I deserve the changes that I'm trying to accomplish? Or am I worth this investment? And if the answer is yes, then the sliding is not happening at the frequency that was before. And sometimes it's never happening again. And, or you have what, what's her name?

[00:17:26] Jennifer Garvey. What's her name? She has this book on geniuses. And there's another book, this woman who wrote about the existential kink. I don't know if you've read that book. And it basically is the same idea. And Marissa Peer also talks about having this, this part of you that has a purpose. It has a function, right? So I often talk to clients who do something repeatedly.

[00:17:55] Maybe they keep dating the same person and it's bad news. Like it's bad match for them, right? They have different names, different careers, different blah, blah, blah. But they're the same person, right? Ultimately, I like, they go for a cheater and it's always end up to be the cheater or whatever it is. And, or you have these eating habits that are really not helpful. And the question is, okay, why are you doing it?

[00:18:22] If you know better, and we can talk about, do you know better? Because ultimately, you might know better here, but your heart is convinced that there's a, like, there's something good there. Like the existential kink is about, you're getting off on something here. Like you might actually enjoy part of this.

[00:18:47] Maybe it's because it keeps reminding you that the world is a dangerous place. And if you stay big, you can fight it. I literally had a client a month ago and she came to me and said, My dad has a heart disease and I've been very good trying to like eat healthy. And I am, but I just can't get myself to the gym.

[00:19:13] And we, we did a session and throughout the session, it turned out that she basically deep down believed that if she goes to the gym and she is light and strong and, and skinny in her mind, then she would have to go out. Now she has an excuse like, oh, I don't feel great.

[00:19:42] So I don't have to go out and meet people and be out in the world. And she was also at the age when she would be like finding a partner. But if she has an excuse, subconsciously, she just told herself, she doesn't have to go because out in the world. And it was all about, it started with going to the gym. And so you have these excuses, like, I know I should go and I already eat healthy and I should go to the gym, but I don't want to. And you're like, why am I not going?

[00:20:10] And it turns out that deep down, you already have the answer in your subconscious and you work against yourself because there's a part of you that protects you from something that you told yourself will be dangerous. Does that make sense? I think we tell ourselves on some level, all kinds of things that make it okay in the moment. And I think what you're saying in a way is we may not even realize it on the subconscious level, what we're saying to ourselves.

[00:20:41] But, you know, it's like, I'm fully aware if I'm doing something, but I may not be fully aware of why, what the true root cause is, right? A hundred percent. And I think that's the most important piece. Before we started recording, you were talking about how everybody's different. Right. And I think that's a huge part of why finding what works for you is so hard because you will always,

[00:21:11] out of 10 people, you will have three who will be like, go to therapy. Therapy is the best. It worked wonders for me. And you will have seven other people who will be like, don't go to therapy. It's a waste of time. It's a waste of money. And it's like, give it a try. Maybe it's going to work for you, but then don't feel bad if it doesn't. Right. Like, have you ever gone to a yoga studio? I haven't, no.

[00:21:36] So I have tried throughout my life, I'm going to say, and 15 different yoga opportunities and everything. Cause in my mind, I was like, I'd be so good at this because I'm delusional. And, and I thought, oh, I'll be so great at this. And so I, and throughout my life, I tried so many studios and I would go in and I would look around and see all these like fit people who in my mind would judge me.

[00:22:05] Or I saw people who were just not there to do the work, but just like looking pretty and tight hands. I don't know. And so I was the judgmental person there and it just never worked out for me. And a few years ago, I moved to a different neighborhood and I went to explore and I go to this studio and there's some something, there's a vibe.

[00:22:33] And there is like people of all ages, all shapes, all skills levels. And I fell in love. And I actually am convinced that some of the work that I do or have done in that studio helped me tremendously in my professional career and in my personal growth.

[00:22:58] And shout out to the B.O. Gaborian in Washington state, but it, it really is a beautiful place. And I am, so I'm thinking sometimes it's not just that it's not for you, but sometimes it's just this therapist wasn't right for you. This studio wasn't right for you, but there's one that will be.

[00:23:21] So just try it and keep trying at it or trying it because the goal is to stay curious. I think to keep seeking what works for you and how you can get better because there's progress. There is. And I give you kudos for trying 10 or 15 times because I don't think most of us would. And we should, to your point, we absolutely should.

[00:23:47] But I think a lot of us convince ourselves that, okay, if these didn't work, no one's going to be able to, you know what I mean? So. And I'm exaggerating slightly, like maybe it wasn't even that many, but the point is, I think that it's good to trust yourself and trust the gut and say, sometimes it doesn't work. Like I literally broke up with one therapist in my past because I kept seeing her and I

[00:24:16] was like, this is not working for me. This is, I'm getting zero value. And I think that there is something about empowering people to do that, to be like, look, you don't have to just because, so you're going to lose some money. Who cares? Or like not to be a glip about it, but. Right. It's more important that you get what you need. Right. And that you keep trying to find whatever that is.

[00:24:44] Do you think that some of the path to self-mastery is like pattern disruption? Like, or I should say self-awareness. And then we use pattern disruption in a way. Like we catch ourselves doing something that we know we shouldn't, for lack of a better word. There's a better option. And then we disrupt that old thinking pattern or that old physical pattern. Is that part of it? Mm-hmm.

[00:25:13] I actually think that I love that term, the sort of pattern interruption. I think it is the biggest game changer for a lot of people. And I am so grateful that you brought this up because it segues into, it's not just you perceiving the world or you being in the world, but it's also the environment, right?

[00:25:36] So we, where we are, and I think we're so much creatures of habit and creatures of our circumstance that it's easy to believe that, oh, I'm so-and-so or I'm this way because you're in that environment. Try to be in a different environment and see if you're, it's almost like that meme.

[00:26:02] I don't know if it's on like Instagram, where people go, I thought I was depressed. Turns out I just didn't travel or turns out I just needed to be on vacation or you're still the same person, but if you plant yourself somewhere else and you go to that place with the intent to stay open and curious and listen or be open to what might come, a lot of growth can come from that. Yeah.

[00:26:31] And I think you brought up a good point also, because we hear a lot of talk about the authentic self and finding out, finding your true authentic self, but a lot of us don't even know what that is. And I want to clarify that by saying that I think most of us, we identify by the job we do or the situation that we're in and not, we never get to that true self. So would you want to talk about what the authentic self is for a minute?

[00:27:00] In your opinion? I mean, yeah. I'd love to. I, so for me, I always go back to the sort of the Shakespearean in Hamlet and Shakespeare in the second act, there's a bit where he says being authentic means being true to yourself and true to others.

[00:27:24] So there's this duality of, I understand it requires, or there's a prerequisite of that self-mastery, meaning you have to understand who you are and you have to be true to yourself. Like you have to admit to yourself that there are things that you're petty about or that you just don't have the self-love that would be important in order to form another, like

[00:27:53] form a relationship with another person. Very few people will tell you this. Very few, or admit to themselves that actually the main reason they can find love is because they don't love themselves. And so, so that, that is what I think is really important about authenticity is understanding who you are and then being able to present that to the outside world truly.

[00:28:22] And, and that to me is so hard. And I'm a big fan of Stoics and, and Aristotle would always say that when you want to, Mark was a earliest too, but when you want to be moral and ethical, you want to act in a way that strengthens your character, right? Like an action is moral if it leads to stronger character and the good of the community.

[00:28:51] And those are really, really simple yet hard rules to live by. Right. So authenticity is to me paramount because the moment we stop lying to ourselves, there's an opening for improvement and personal growth. Yeah. I think it's hard to be honest to yourself. A lot of times we all avoid that or a lot of us try to avoid that. I think. True. True.

[00:29:19] So I know some people I've had on the show have said like making a huge transformation in your life, whatever it is, is as simple as just making that decision. You make the decision and then you stand by it. Do you, I don't feel like that's necessarily true for myself because I think you can make the decision, but I don't think it's that simple. I think there's a lot of groundwork behind that decision. You know what I mean?

[00:29:46] Not to make the decision, but to actually implement that decision. I think it's a lot bigger deal. I just wondered what your thoughts on that were. It's an interesting. So you mentioned at the beginning that I also am a professor and it comes out in moments like these. Because let's talk about what does it mean to make a decision? What are we really talking about?

[00:30:13] And I think what you're touching upon is when people say, just make a decision and then stick by it. That sounds great in theory. Right. And it's also that it could be that what you're saying is, I'm going to quote Nietzsche, who said, Viktor Frankl actually quotes this at the beginning of his men's search for meaning, where he says, I'm going to butcher it.

[00:30:42] But I think that the quote is something like, for a man who knows why, he can live through any what? And so one way to answer your question is to say, it's not necessarily the decision, but it is when we find the purpose or the reason why we're doing something or we should be doing something, then it is much easier to do that thing. Right. Right.

[00:31:11] So I think there is part of what if I'm only hearing sort of the surface explanation or surface meaning of just do the thing and or like make a decision and then so if the decision means. Find your purpose, then yes. It's like everything falls in the place somewhat much easier because we know why we're doing something. It's almost like when people say.

[00:31:41] When they have a child for men, it works like this for women, obviously, even more so. Suddenly, like, oh, crap. It's not just about me. I have a purpose. I have to provide for this child. I have to build something for the child. I want the child to respect me and be inspired. So I better put my life together and do certain things. And so in that sense, it is the decision. Right.

[00:32:09] But it's really the purpose that is is even more important. So once you know why you're doing something, how you're going to get there or what it is that you need to do in order to stay true to that North Star, that should happen somewhat easier. At the same time, I think that people, when they say and I'm going to side with you being kind of like, I don't know about this one.

[00:32:37] But when you say make a decision and stick to stick with it. The problem is that we are making decisions based on flawed data. Right. So like you said, if you don't know yourself or you believe that I work with a lot of young people and when when they want to do like when they come to my program and they say, oh, I have this career plan for myself. And it's like, but why?

[00:33:07] Because you your dad has this job because your cousin has this job because you like yourself in that outfit or and the reasons could be we laugh. But honestly, I was laughing because it's very real. Yeah, it's very real. Right. And you don't even know 80 percent of different jobs in that particular industry just that you might end up actually doing.

[00:33:32] So I think that very often we make decisions that are based on sort of inauthentic or untrue beliefs. And it behooves us to do something to make sure that we know why we're doing what we're doing. And so it goes back to because everything is connected to. Do you know yourself?

[00:34:01] Can you rely on what you want for yourself that you like if you have parents who want some career for you that you don't want? Are you staying true to yourself? Are you are you telling them I love you? I know you want the best for me. I will hate this and I will be miserable. Do you have the courage to have that conversation? And that's very different from I'm going to make the decision and I'm going to stick with it.

[00:34:28] And it's like, right, because sometimes it's someone else's decision and you're trying to stick to it. Just like you said, mom or dad or like you need to do this and you're trying to adhere to what a decision they made. It's not even your decision or your spouse's right. Like or your partner. Exactly. Very true. That is tough. I was wondering, you touched on self-love and on the podcast. I've been very open.

[00:34:55] I've been on a journey of trying to find self-love for my whole life. And I had a guest once that said, well, the reason you keep looking for these different things and trying different things is if you look at it this way, it's because you love yourself. You're trying to do something good for yourself and it may not work. So you try something else. And I thought, wow, I never really reframed it in that way. But I just wondered for people who are struggling with that self-love portion.

[00:35:22] And I know you talked about you can't love someone else if you don't love yourself. But I've never felt like I've had a problem loving other people. I just never felt it for myself. And I think I was expecting some big aha moment or I probably had unrealistic expectations to a degree as well. But I'm just wondering what advice you have to someone who's also on that journey of trying to discover what that piece is.

[00:35:50] And is it just, is it making those decisions and then honoring yourself by keeping to it? Or how do you see it? I think that the self-love is so important because it gives us humility and grace for others. And it's when having compassion with ourselves is so critical.

[00:36:15] And I think I've seen a lot of people either in my practice or just myself and myself included, the self-love so often may look like I'm no longer a perfectionist. And I'm no in a sense that everything that I do doesn't have to be perfect. And if it isn't, then I'm, I'm a loser, right? Like I no longer call myself bad names.

[00:36:44] I no longer have this self-talk that is derogatory. I no longer, when something goes wrong, I don't default to, oh, I must have done something wrong. And I spend 35 years in that world. I know exactly. I know all the tricks in all the bags. I could be teaching a very like 400 level class on how to not love yourself.

[00:37:10] And it demonstrates in different ways, but it's always terrible because I think that what's really hard to accept. And I think that we talked about it earlier is that maybe you don't have to be perfect to be loved. Maybe you don't have to. And again, like when we have kids or when we have friends or we love somebody, it's so easy to understand.

[00:37:38] Yes, they will mess up and it doesn't matter. I love them anyway. Right. They will not always do it perfectly. And that's okay. I love them anyway. When we can't give that same grace and love to ourselves, it's like a cognitive dissonance and it's a hard dissonance. And I feel like for those people, there's two things that help. If you're on this journey, one is just start talking to yourself as if you were talking to a friend. And I'm very lucky.

[00:38:06] I like to say that my friends are the best thing about me. I have this one particular friend and I remember every now and then I would say, yeah, I'm an idiot. I did this. And she would say, don't talk like this about my friend, Hannah. And I was always like, okay. But eventually I could, every time I was like, yeah, because I don't know anything about anything. That was my favorite.

[00:38:33] And I thought that it was like funny because I usually would have like, I would have things figured out and I am pretty smart as it is. So like keeping it real and putting myself down a little, like what's the harm? And then I, but I could now, I now hear her in my ear every time. And she'd be like, don't say that about my friend. And when you start changing that internal dialogue, it really does help.

[00:39:02] And so I'm almost losing the train of thought. One was, yes, how you address yourself and this internal loving kindness to yourself. And then the other is, I think that deep down, we still, when we do this, when we don't allow the full love, we still believe for whatever reason that we need to be something or do something

[00:39:32] in order to be lovable. And we really don't. Right. You don't have to earn the love. You can just receive the love. And I think that's a hard one. And that's one where the brain is the biggest enemy. Yeah. I think, cause if you have had people, I've listened to people that say like envision your

[00:39:56] child or your dog or something that you really love in front of yourself and you can feel the love that you have for that child or that pet or whatever it is. But I've never, I can honestly say I've never looked in the mirror and felt that way. You know what I mean? And it's just something that I think we're not even taught and our parents weren't taught. I'm not picking on anybody. None of us were ever taught that kind of love towards ourselves.

[00:40:24] And so I think it's a very foreign, like you almost feel like you're conceited or egotistical or something. If you were to feel that way, you know what I mean? A hundred percent. And I think that it's a tragedy, but it's also something that like certain techniques do very well. And before we started recording, we meant, we both mentioned RTT and that is one of the

[00:40:51] most powerful techniques where you can, you asked me at the beginning, like, would you be okay talking about your personal experience? And I think that I, this is the right time to bring this up actually. Sure. Years ago, I had a therapist who, who was doing regression therapy and I owe her my life. Like this woman changed my life completely.

[00:41:17] And she had me go back in a semi-conscious state hypnotherapy. She made me go back to the time I was a little girl. And I thought that I know what will happen if I go there. And I was talking to my 12 year old self.

[00:41:44] And there was this moment where she was talking to me or I could like, in my mind, I'm sitting in my therapist's office, but I had this exchange. And I remember she, she guided me, the therapist said, okay, now give her a hug. And I hugged her, the little girl who was me and Michelle, all the floodgates were open

[00:42:14] and I basically discombobulated. Like I just lost like, and I realized that I've never given myself the level of the love that I probably really yearned for and wanted and never got. And it was transformative. That experience, there were others, but that was a transformative moment.

[00:42:38] And I now have clients and I watch them do the same thing or very similar. And it never like, it doesn't lose its brilliance and beauty because it's so fundamental. And it's such a primal need that we can give ourselves to, especially if you follow the right techniques.

[00:43:04] And I think that that is the way to completely change the narrative that you have in your head to elevate that baseline, to start looking at others through with that self-love and to look at yourself and to go, do I want the fourth ice cream or am I going to stop at three?

[00:43:27] And, or do I, do I actually like the person I am enough to not talk crap about them? Right. To be compassionate with my shortcomings. And to me, that is, that's why I do what I do. I think the self-love, and as you said, it cannot, it shouldn't be this surface, like

[00:43:52] I like my outfit today, or like I like the new face that I bought or the haircut or whatever people do. That's not self-love. That's just being dumb. But the true self-love where we're aware that there are things that are very important to us. And there are things that don't matter to us, that we are aware what we need and what we want to give and what we want to receive.

[00:44:21] And we can build the boundaries, not because I want to define myself against you, but because I love me, I need to do this for me. Right. I want to build a standard for me because I deserve it. That is super healthy and can only lead to better relationships. Yeah, I agree.

[00:44:47] And I think boundaries is something that until recently, I'd never even thought about as part of that self-love. And like you said, you feel like you're doing something against someone else. And it's really not about them. It's really about protecting yourself. And like whether that boundary is, hey, I have to be asleep by 8 p.m. or I'm just absolutely exhausted the next day, whatever it is. And it's not against anyone.

[00:45:15] It's just trying to help yourself and take care of yourself. So I think that is an important part. Yeah. And I think that people, I think that the reframing is so helpful when you can, and you can reframe almost anything. If you want to be guided by love and bringing good to the world, back to the Aristotle or

[00:45:40] whoever, Jesus of all people, if we're going to be, or Buddha, like it's all about bringing love and peace. And if those are your guiding principles, then, you know, you have to say, okay, so it applies to everything. I'll give you a different example. I hated sales when I was younger and like in my business years, different career.

[00:46:07] And I always felt like marketing is super fun, but the idea of selling my services was just appalling. Like I abhorred that, right? Because culturally, so I'm from, I was born in Czechoslovakia and the idea of like, we can get to that, but like the idea of like promoting yourself, something that like it comes to, in my experience, it comes to Americans easier than anybody else I've ever met in my life. Right.

[00:46:36] Like I am great is basically like a default for most people here. I would, I would say for some, cause I know a lot that struggle. No, I know. And I'm big when it comes to exaggerating, but I will tell you as an not outsider anymore, but somebody coming from a different culture. I've, I remember the first time I was really exposed to it. I was like, Oh, this is phenomenal. How do they do this?

[00:47:06] This is so great. I don't have any of this. How do I grow that bone? Right. Like, how do I do it? And sales and self-promotion seemed like such a dirty, weird, unappealing part of my job or of my sort of activities. I know that I'm good at what I do, but going out there and telling people seemed just not my cup of tea.

[00:47:32] But then I realized that, Oh wait, sales or marketing, or you have something that the other person actually wants. You're just trying to get that help to them. Like you can be helpful. And if you don't do the marketing, if you don't do the promo, they will not know. And they will be without your help. So do you want to help them or not? And everything else is white noise. Everything else is secondary. Like the point is, do you want to help?

[00:48:02] And once you make that switch and you go, Oh, it's not about me. It's about helping the other person or like closing the gap between the person who needs you and you, then it all became much easier. I love talking a, but I love talking about my job because I know that it works and I have number of really happy clients. And so, yeah, it totally changed it.

[00:48:30] That's a, that's an awesome example. Yeah. And I can tell you, like, I know with the RTT, which is rapid transformational therapy for the people who are listening, who don't know hypnotherapy, they even teach me. Teach a section in that for that exact reason, because so many people, and of course there's all different cultures in there too, but so many people struggle with that exact same thing. It's like trying to promote yourself as a whole nother realm. Yeah, it is.

[00:48:58] But it's interesting because I feel like it's such a small bit, but you can extrapolate and you can see it working in other contexts too, right? Like it's not just the science. Oh yeah. I can totally see it. It still would seem hard, but I can see where it would help in many different areas. Not just that. But let's stay with this because I think that it helps to draw that, to kind of bring that

[00:49:27] point home, we just talked about boundaries. Okay. So the boundary isn't about sort of me giving you my boundary and you knowing where your place is. If the overall framing is, I have my heart that I want to, and I have respect for who I am, and I have respect for who you are.

[00:49:52] And I would like us to meet at the place that it's comfortable for both of us. And in order to do that, I want to tell, I need to be courageous. I need to be self-aware. And I need to be able to communicate in a way that it's kind and firm where that boundary is for me. And I'm coming from a place of love because I want us to be friends. I want us to be partners. I want us to be colleagues. Right.

[00:50:21] And if you do that, then you're not doing it because I have this hard set boundary and I need to, what is the, you shall not pass, like this Gandalfian thing. But then the other person is your equal. They are your partners in this project of having good relationship. So it elevates it. And it's the same thing.

[00:50:45] It's the reframe with love and the good of the community as the guiding principles. Very true. Yeah. And I think people respect when it comes from a place of love and you can tell them what your boundaries are. I think they respect that. And they probably, I know for me, you appreciate it, right? Because you don't have to guess. You already know. And it helps. Sometimes it's just hard to get to that reframe. Yeah. This is true.

[00:51:15] I wanted to, I know we're edging on time, but I wanted to have you talk about the place body mind formula. If you would. I'd love to. It's my jam. That's my thing. So the body place mind formula is basically, so I would welcome people to check out my website, the rtnwithhana.com.

[00:51:40] But what it is in a nutshell is for overthinkers, for people who are so much into the prefrontal cortex, for people who have gone through therapy, went for six months or eight months or two years and they have not gone anywhere. They are not better. Right. This is a really good approach because it tricks you into making a huge change or getting to a

[00:52:07] different place by removing the focus or like shifting the focus from the brain only. Right. And so one of the things that I find really important is, okay, let's say, let's start with the body. The, we have mountains of research showing that if we move, if we create endorphins, if we get

[00:52:34] exposure to sun rays, if we get exposure to trees and the ocean and, oh, just go around the city park a few times every day, that our hormonal makeup changes. We know this is not even worth discussing. Like it is true. We can move more. And by doing so, we will feel better.

[00:53:00] How many of us would be like, oh, I'm in a bad mood and like, I'm in a bad mood. I'm going to have a glass of wine. And it's like, or hear me out. Or instead of the half a bottle of wine that you're about to down, which we all know that's going to happen and you're going to be sitting on the couch there. You could go outside. Nobody wants to hear that. But it's the truth. Like you will feel better. You will feel better.

[00:53:25] I remember I had a birthing doula when I was, when my son was born and she was like, okay, I don't care what you do. I just want you every day. Promise me to go outside. If you're sitting at the, like on the stoop outside your house, be outside of your house. Leave that baby for 10 minutes minimum, but give me 10 minutes and I'll take it every day. Just remove yourself from that position, from that situation.

[00:53:54] Being like in that headspace, in that physical space, just go outside. And if you can make it around the block, then great. And I got to tell you every day I made a promise. So I did. And every day when I came back from that walk and it really was just like end of the block and back, but I felt better. Right. It's not going to change necessarily a lot, but it's going to help a little. And like feeling a little better sometimes makes a lot of difference.

[00:54:25] So my thing about body is it's got obviously a lot of things going on, but one is there's this idea that when people are into fitness, they're somewhat shallow or they don't like, they're not intellectual and all this BS, which I cannot stand. Because I think that it shows discipline and it shows that you are, you care. And, and it is a, you only have this one vessel.

[00:54:54] This smart brain is not going to sit in anything else. Like as far as I can tell, and not for a long time. So, and then the body is also like, the thing about the body is what we eat is so critical, right? But also we are told you have to do this. You have to run or you have to do cardio or you have to do keto or you have to do this. And ultimately all the studies or like 90% of all these studies and surveys are made with,

[00:55:23] or have been done with men. Of course. Number one, because most studies don't want to have women because of our hormonal cycle. And it throws off the data because on the day one of the cycle, you're going to be testing differently hormonally than on the day 17 or 27. And so I've read a lot about this and studied it long enough to know that this is true.

[00:55:49] And so a lot of the information you're getting also doesn't work for half of my clients, right? Right. And so like where you are hormonally, that's absolutely critical. And knowing what triggers you and what foods are good for you or not good for you. And it's not what's good for majority of other people. You really need to look at what's good for you specifically with your genetic makeup, with your sort of epigenetic makeup and all that. So that's body.

[00:56:18] And then it also is about embodiment. So a lot of us have complete disassociation from our bodies. We think that we can... Have you seen the movie Inside Out? It was a Pixar movie years ago. And my son loved that one. And I remember I loved it. The emotions, yeah. But it's fundamentally wrong. Scientifically speaking, it's completely wrong.

[00:56:46] Because it assumes that there's some like given emotions and we just pull them out. And or like they actually are sitting behind this dashboard and they are directing our actions. And that's not true at all. Right. In fact, the emotions are made. We build them, right? With bits and pieces, including what the body actually has that emotion before you actually,

[00:57:13] you figure out what to call it or what it is. And so those are all... It's obviously, I don't want to run another hour of this podcast, but that's a huge bit that if you focus here and start working on these aspects, very often it can help you way more than another three weeks in talk therapy and or three months or three years.

[00:57:42] And so that to me is really, really important. That people who are looking for answers don't just go, I have a emotional problem. Let's go find therapists and talk to them. It's like, yes, you can obviously. It might be good, but there might be other ways. And moving is absolutely critical. I'll give you another great example from that yoga studio.

[00:58:12] A woman I talked to was trying to launch a business and was going on and on about it. And we had a conversation about one of the poses, the yoga poses, and she struggled with it. And then because it's a very revealing pose where you're opening up the center of your body and it requires you to be in that uncomfortable space of exposing yourself, right?

[00:58:42] It's very defenseless. You go, you get in that pose and you're exposed to the lions. And I don't know what we're wired to fear. And eventually she mastered it and it helped her to deal with the issue that she had. And I find that so illustrative.

[00:59:06] Like, so you, maybe you are struggling in your relationship because you don't have the courage to address certain issues. And then you start going for walks and maybe short runs and you keep it up. And two months later, you're like, well, crap, if I can do this, I can have a conversation with my husband. Right. I think you're right. And I think there, and you alluded to it also, but there's a lot of studies that just

[00:59:33] being in nature, just kind of, I don't want to say instantly, but it's almost instantly changes your whole state. It does for me. I mean, I can be like you were saying in a bad mood, but I decide to go for a walk and it's just like, you're at peace. I don't know. There is a really brilliant book about this, the extended mind that demonstrates. And like, she's a, what's her name?

[01:00:00] Murphy is the, the woman's name. She demonstrates, she's a science writer and she demonstrates a lot of these issues related to how environment changes our wiring. And there are one of the studies that I looked into was done in the, you know how in seventies, they build these sort of a windowless concrete buildings. Yeah. There's one campus like this in Seattle that every time I go, I was like, what were they thinking?

[01:00:30] And classrooms with no windows and, and there are studies showing that they did this experiment where they would have students in, in those classrooms take a test. And then they would have another control group and they, those students would go and they had to move the classroom and go by like this atrium or a courtyard through a courtyard where there was greenery and they could see trees and grass and blah, blah, blah, like a lot of

[01:00:59] some nature. And then they test them, tested them. And the test scores were much higher for the students who could rest their brains. And here's the science behind it. I'm like, the neuroscience is really interesting. It's because your brain is a predictive machine. And so we're constantly, it's like trapped in there, right? And it only relies on what you're giving it. And it constantly thinks what's going to happen and how it's going to happen.

[01:01:28] And it builds on the previous experiences and calculates where you are. What is the danger level? All of that. That's your brain. It's a predictive machine. When you are in the city, you are exposed to items that the brain isn't used to because we're talking hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.

[01:01:49] And the brain recognizes the green landscape or red landscape or whatever the landscape is. But the nature, it recognizes, it's used to it somewhere. Like it recognizes the patterns. And that's where we relax the brain because we see the patterns. This is when you're laying down and looking up and there's like clouds passing.

[01:02:16] The reason why it's so calming is that we had thousands, millions of years looking at those clouds and we understand the pattern. So the brain relaxes. But when we're looking at like buildings that showed up, what, 50, 100 years ago, it's the patterns are not there and the shapes are weird. And like we, why do people have phobias?

[01:02:44] Because snakes and spiders were a problem for millions of years. We don't like have phobias of cars. And yet those are way deadlier these days. Right. But very true. Because it's all lodged in there. That is amazing. I hadn't really thought of that, but you're right. It's crazy. It is crazy. I wanted, if you wanted to tell people like, I know your therapy is a little bit different

[01:03:13] as far as the modalities that you use along with the hypnotherapy or hypnosis. Would you want to tell us about that for a few minutes? Yeah, I would love to. So we do rapid transformational neurocoaching is a technique that combines the principles of several other techniques. Plus we have some proprietary approaches as well. And the trademark is pending. So we'll see.

[01:03:42] But it is in a nutshell. We work with clients. And I say we, in my also capacity as I have my own private practice, but I also am a director for coaching for leadership associates, which is a consultancy based in Vienna, in Europe. And my colleague, Dr. Belloc and I developed this technique. And the technique is essentially, again, it's very customized.

[01:04:11] So we do obviously design the approach to fit the needs of every client. But in essence, it uses hypnotherapy so that we address the subconscious rather than your conscious mind. It does use some language therapy principles that are based on neuroscience.

[01:04:40] There is some rewiring where we work with the clients on laying down foundations for new patterns in your thinking. And I particularly like all the holistic approaches, again, incorporating my body, mind, place formula into it as well. Because I think that, honestly, if you make your bed every day and if you rearrange the furniture

[01:05:07] in your apartment and or you decide that what will help you is move to a different neighborhood, then you should do that. Maybe move to a different state. But there are certain things that I think people are overlooking because they think that they're only dealing with their head. And I'm exaggerating slightly with the move, but I think that there are things that you can do to move you, move yourself to a different setting that will enhance the change.

[01:05:35] And I'm really proud of some of the techniques that we have where we get to find out what it is that you might need in order to change. Because ultimately, like, I think you asked me my personal experience. Look, I, deep down, am extremely optimistic person. I'm a glass fool always. Because, and it's not blind optimism, right?

[01:06:05] It's just understanding that things happen and it is what it is. Like, it's not, it's like your judgment around it. It doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't matter. It's going to happen or it is happening. Like, you might not like it or you might have opinion about it, but it is happening. So now what?

[01:06:26] And I think meeting clients where they are and seeing them thrive by this guidance with love and what's good for the communities. So those are really critical pieces for me. And it's very satisfying to do this as a calling, as a profession, as a vocation. I encourage people to look into it. Again, find and be brave. Find what works for you.

[01:06:55] If you think that therapy, like, people are very cautious when it comes to hypnotherapy in particular, because they're like, am I going to be, like, meowing or barking when I wake up? Are you going to, are you going to ask me my social? And then, I don't know. But the key is that you're never asleep. That's not what it is. It's really that you're just kind of making sure that this part is asleep so this part can sleep.

[01:07:25] I'm sorry. This is asleep so this part can speak and be awake and have a space to be addressed. And once you rearrange things a little bit, then you can move forward. Yeah. And I have to admit, before I got certified in hypnotherapy, I had that same fear because we see that stage, quote unquote, hypnosis, where people quack like a duck or bark like a dog. And we think that's what it is. And it's nothing like that. I always tell people it's like a deep relaxation.

[01:07:54] That's what I, that's how it is for me. And that's how I think it is for most everybody else other than the stage hypnosis. Well, I could, I got to tell you when we work with corporate clients, we never use the term hypnotherapy because it scares people and it freaks them out. But when you say deep relaxation, everybody's like, yeah, I'm on board. That's great. The same thing. And that's what it is. It really, because you're fully aware you can get up and walk out if you wanted to.

[01:08:22] I mean, you're in control still. This is true. But I think that's what people are afraid they're going to lose control. So do you work one-on-one with just like average people or do you just work with the entrepreneurs, the business professionals? How is that? I am very indiscriminate and I will work with, if we, if anybody calls me and at the end of the sort of discovery call, we feel like we're a good match, then I will work with you.

[01:08:51] That's totally, I don't have a niche in this sense. Most of our professional career as coaches with the leadership associates, we were working with women in like leadership roles. But now in my private practice, it just happens. I don't know if it's word of mouth or if, I don't know why, but I actually have majority of my clients are now men.

[01:09:17] And I think men in like their sort of like a mid career or end careers, like the, I think that age bracket would be like 35 to 55 maybe. And I think that's because yes, it's true. Men don't go to therapy. And coaching is a little more digestible.

[01:09:41] I think for men, it's like, I'm not going to damn therapy, but a coach, I can digest. I can do that. I can talk to a coach. So that's number one. It just sounds better, less embarrassing. And number two, I think that it's because it's so much more efficient and men are really great about efficiency. Right. And I mean, women are too, don't get me wrong. But I think that it really is appealing to people who are like, look, I need to do something.

[01:10:11] I'm going to give it a try. I'm not willing to commit to a year of talking to a person. But if your packages are four or five weeks, then I can do that, right? Like I can commit to that. And excuse me. And so that's, and it's really, it's really working. And I think that there is, there's something ultimately, that's why you're here. You want something to change.

[01:10:39] You want something to work. And if this will work, why not? And so a lot of the, so my, like a, like a, an typical client would be somebody who is again, like fairly successful in their lives and they have been following the path. And we talked about it at the beginning, maybe before we started recording, but like generationally, there's also not as much.

[01:11:09] Who talked about mental health or who talked about choose a career that will make you happy? Like, what is this? No, choose a career that will make you money. Exactly. And so a lot of men, especially in their like forties and fifties, they're looking around and they're like, I'm sorry, what now? I chose something that I was told will make me successful and I succeeded, but I feel miserable.

[01:11:37] And, or like, I, I can't connect with my kids and I take them to good places. I was like, there are all these. And so the issue might be, yeah, but because you don't know how to talk to yourself, let along to, to people around you, or like you'd, you don't actually think that you deserve the love of your kids because you don't think that what you do matters, or there are all these aspects. And sometimes again, it, people come with issues that might sound different than what it actually is.

[01:12:07] So I had the example of somebody who comes in because they don't want to go to gym. And eventually they're like, oh, oh, I see. It's not about me going to the gym. It's about me not wanting to go into the world. And so by the same token, sometimes people come in and they say, I have imposter syndrome. It's like, okay. And then eventually they go like, I don't think that I deserve to, to be here or to get

[01:12:35] the love of my daughter or whatever it is. So those would be my typical clients. Okay. Yeah. That's awesome. It's a fascinating field for sure. So is there anything that I haven't asked you today that you want to make sure that the listeners hear? No, Michelle. I know we've been all over. I know. And I, I know that we are running also too long probably, but it's so, I wanted to thank

[01:13:01] you because I know your podcast and you're bringing so many wonderful people. And for your listeners, I think the only thing I would add is just by being aware, just by listening to podcasts like yours, I think people are already on their way to, to find what works for them. And that is everything. Like I, it's not everything, but it's half the battle.

[01:13:28] I think it is everything because until you unlock that piece, whatever happens to be for you, you, you might feel lost or feel stuck or whatever word that's your situation. But I think it is a tremendous chunk at least. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. And like you, you said earlier, we only get one shot at that. And I know there's debate on everything, but as far as I know, we only get one shot.

[01:13:55] So this is the only body we have and we better make good on it. So. I agree. And it's a beautiful life. It can be truly brilliant and beautiful in so many ways. And not to enjoy it because of some hung up is we're doing ourselves a disservice. So thank you so much for running this podcast. I am a huge fan. Well, thank you. That means a lot to me. And thank you for coming today.

[01:14:24] And I know you have vast experience and wisdom, and I appreciate you sharing it with us. Thank you for having me. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. As we wrap up today's episode, I hope Hana sharing her knowledge, experience, and wisdom has helped you in some way. I think it's extremely important to emphasize that you can be highly successful and miserable at the same time. Many times we think that what we achieve defines us. However, this usually doesn't lead to personal happiness at all.

[01:14:55] Hana also mentioned the importance of getting past the unconscious mind and accessing the subconscious mind, whether that's through hypnotherapy or other nonverbal modalities like somatic breathing or even just being in nature. Hana also emphasized living authentically and practicing self-love. And self-love seems to be a requirement for establishing personal boundaries and even allowing yourself to extend grace to others. So I hope you enjoyed today's show. I would love to hear from you.

[01:15:24] As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend. And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at

[01:15:55] thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.