Ep. 92 Finding Resilience and Healing with Savio Clemente

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. I had the opportunity to sit down and catch up with Savio Clemente. Savio shares his personal journey, recounting his upbringing in both India and the U.S., his college experiences, and his career even before being diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma in 2014.

[00:00:54] He describes his symptoms, his diagnosis, and treatment, emphasizing the importance of integrating both a mainstream and a holistic healthcare practice for recovery. Savio also highlights the emotional and mental challenges faced by cancer survivors, particularly the impact of emotional well-being on physical health. He discusses the significance of self-awareness, community support, and finding personal resilience and purpose post-recovery.

[00:01:23] Our conversation even extends to the experience of caregivers. Savio is a TEDx speaker and a stage 3 cancer survivor. He knows transformation from the inside out. Battling cancer ignited a fire within him. This journey not only shaped his character, but it laid the foundation for his mission, which is empowering cancer survivors and ambitious leaders to amplify their voices and forge a truly healthy, wealthy, and wise lifestyle.

[00:01:52] Through his best-selling book and impactful work as a media journalist, covering inspirational stories of resilience and exploring wellness trends, Savio has collaborated with notable celebrities and TV personalities, bringing his insights to diverse audiences and touching countless lives. He guides you to love your inner stranger, rewrite your narrative, and unleash your potential. As a board-certified wellness coach, Savio helps individuals discover the profound truth.

[00:02:21] To know thyself is to heal thyself. Hi, I'm Michelle Sims, your host. I'm just a regular person who, along with my family, have had our share of messes that we, too, have had to overcome. Along the way, I got curious as to how others get through their messes, even triumph over them. Maybe there's a better way, a faster way. Maybe we can accelerate our journeys by learning from someone else. That started my pursuit.

[00:02:47] I think we can all learn from each other through the sharing of our experiences, lessons, and knowledge. So join me for episode 92 of The Beauty and the Mess, called Finding Resilience and Healing with Savio Clemente. So without further ado, let's dive right into today's conversation. Hi, Savio. Welcome to The Beauty and the Mess. I'm so happy to have you with me today. Michelle, it's a pleasure to be on. I'm really excited. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited to have you.

[00:03:15] Now, I know you're a TEDx speaker. You're a successful author. You're a wellness coach. Many, many other things. But before we kind of dig into that, I was wondering if you would tell us some of your personal journey. Like, what's culminated and brought you to this place that you're at in your life today? So I'm a stage three cancer survivor. Everyone wants to know that story first. But I think it's very important to let people know a little bit of back history. So I was born in Mumbai, India. I did not. I wasn't born in the States.

[00:03:45] I came here when I was three years old. We grew up in a little town in Westchester County, New York. It's about 40 miles north of New York City called Peekskill. And if you are a fan of the Facts of Life, and I'm dating myself here, Michelle, but there's a show called Facts of Life. It was taking place in a town called Peekskill. That's the town that I actually grew up in. Very cute, very safe town. And I went to high school there. And then I went to the big city for college in New York City. And it was in college that I was really thrust with new ideas, new people, new experiences.

[00:04:14] And I grew up Catholic, but I always, for myself, wanted to just study other belief systems. And just so I could just get acquainted to how people think and feel about certain things that are important to them. And so I graduated from college with the information systems business administration background. I was always good in computers. I was part of the dot-com world. Also the dot-com crash. I experienced 9-11. A good friend of mine unfortunately passed away by 9-11. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. And I just traveled really a lot.

[00:04:44] I did a lot of things in the IT world, let's say. And then I dipped my toe in the TV production world with a couple of other individuals. It was good and bad for like a decade. And then in 2014, cancer came into my life very quickly and very rapidly. So that's just a quick summation as to my journey thus far. How did you find out you had cancer? What was that like? Yeah.

[00:05:13] So I was on a trip with a friend, actually from college. We kept in touch for many, many years. And I was in London, Paris, and Amsterdam with him. And I just kept noticing deep night sweats, like drenching night sweats. I'm like, this is very odd. This is Europe. Like this is an extremely warm country. And I came back to the States and I started having them. And then all of a sudden my stomach started getting distended, bigger and bigger. Oh, wow. And then I had a little bit of belabored breathing.

[00:05:40] And at that point in my life, I was living, quote unquote, a very physically active, like checked all the boxes type of physical life. I was working out six days a week, boxing, spinning, strength training, taking my vitamins, eating organic food, meditating, having some level of spirituality focus in my life. So I was doing all the quote unquote right things. But I was seeing a naturopath for many, many years. Basically, he's just someone who's very skilled at looking at blood work and telling you what kind of diet structure to take and what kind of vitamins to take.

[00:06:10] And he looked at my blood work when I came to him. And he's like, whoa, there could be many things here. I really suggest you go to mainstream medicine and get a sonogram. And I'm like, what? He's like, get a sonogram. So I ended up getting a sonogram. They wouldn't let me leave the office, Michelle, for like an hour and a half. They finally came out, told me to have a relative come pick me up and take me to the hospital. I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:06:32] I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:07:02] Fortunately, it's stage three non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. It's something called diffuse large B cell. But he did, for some strange reason, reassure me by saying that if there's a cancer to get, this is the cancer to get. And that they had therapeutics and biologics that are very good at helping me get rid of this. So I remember him saying that to me. But obviously, as you know, there was a whole unraveling that I could speak to. But that was the initial onset of how I found out.

[00:07:29] So you were kind of on a wellness journey before this hit, if I'm understanding correctly. I was. I mean, I was, like I said, I think part of it is also the culture of like New York and New York City. People just are like in this mindset of take care of your physical body because the summer is there, the beaches and all. But yes, I did everything right from a physical standpoint. But I'll be honest, the partnership I had with those individuals from an emotional and mental standpoint was not good.

[00:07:57] I, Michelle, did not have the courage to tell them it wasn't working for me. It wasn't working for them on their own personal levels. But for me, it wasn't working. Right. And I'm not saying that was the reason for the cancer, but it didn't help the cancer. And it all coincided around the same time, strangely enough. And I saw it as an opportunity to divest myself from everything and focus on the goal. The goal for me was healing. I didn't know where I would find it.

[00:08:25] I did get, I was ushered by the medical director at the hospital. She actually said to me that, she goes, we know your background history. We know you don't even take aspirin. But I will let you know, if you do not take your first round of chemo before you leave this hospital, I don't know what's going to happen to you. I'm like, it's that serious. And she's like, it's that serious. And I was like, okay. And that's when I relied on a really good friend. And I tell this story because it's so, it's such a searing part of my life story in terms

[00:08:55] of what I'm doing now, because I relied on a really good friend. She's probably one of the wisest people I've ever known in my whole entire life. And I said to her that this is what the medical director said. She goes, Sabio, are you sure you want to get chemo? And it ravages the good and the bad. It just destroys everything that it sees. And I was like, I didn't really have an answer for her. But I will tell you, sometimes when you're put through a situation, there's sparks of

[00:09:22] inspiration or guidance, whatever you call it, God, Jesus, Buddha. I just had this inspiration that flashed in my mind. And I speak to this in my TEDx talk. This scene from this movie called Little Buddha, it was starring Keanu Reeves as Siddhartha, which is the little Buddha. And it was in like the early 90s. And basically, he played little Buddha. So he gave up all his worldly possessions because his family grew up very wealthy.

[00:09:50] And he was meditating with two other ascetics. And they were living on basically next to nothing. And he overhears while meditating two individuals on a fishing boat. And it was an older man and a younger man. And the older man had an instrument. And he tells the younger person in the boat, if you hold the string too tight, it will snap. And if you leave it too slack, it won't play. The path is the middle way. And I'm like, oh, my God. It was like a flash of inspiration. I'm like, oh, I can say yes to the chemo.

[00:10:19] But I can also do a whole bunch of stuff once I get out of this hospital. And that's what I did. I took ownership and body autonomy. And in between my six rounds of chemo, so I did one round in the hospital, five other rounds. I ended up doing a whole bunch of integrated modalities that, to me, I felt benefited me from some of the side effects that I experienced. You mentioned something that I thought was very interesting.

[00:10:42] On your journey, how much have you learned or how much do you feel that our mental aspect has to do with our health? Because a lot of us kind of ignore those thoughts we have and what's ruminating inside, thinking that if we try to take care of the body, that we'll be fine. And I think a lot of the thoughts do affect us physically. A hundred percent. So I, as you explained earlier, I'm a board-certified wellness coach.

[00:11:12] I coach individuals that have gone through medical adversity and now want to recreate their new lives in both their professional lives or their personal lives. And even cancer survivors as well are some of my clients. And that aspect is huge. In my TEDx talk, I mentioned that there is a survey from the CDC's NHANES study that says that 20 to 40% of cancer survivors experience some level of emotional and mental dysfunction even after survivorship.

[00:11:40] So can you imagine, after they said that they are survivors and are on remission, this is the percentage. So what is the percentage when they're going through it? Or what is the percentage when they've just been told it's huge and it's staggering? And so I feel like it's my duty to speak to what I've been through and also my training in what I do as a coach. I was also taking it as to, like, what's your mental state even before the diagnosis, right?

[00:12:07] Like, does that play into the diagnosis? And we don't even realize it possibly. A hundred percent. I, a hundred percent. Of course, there's no way to quantify this. So. Right. Yeah. All about what kind of research or cases can we, empirical evidence can, you know, we can gather. But I personally will, from a personal standpoint, definitely know that there's a huge effect. And speaking to my clients, they've actually expressed to me that there's a huge effect that before cancer came into their lives,

[00:12:35] they've had, they had dysfunction in some level or area of their life and their mental thinking or their mental health was not really up to par. Do you think it's like kind of repressing our emotions a bit? Like we're not allowing ourselves, like you said, the partnership with business partners wasn't going well. And it sounds like you kind of repress those feelings instead of just. Go ahead. I think it goes hand in hand. I think it was both the mental and the emotional aspect of myself. Yeah.

[00:13:05] You know, feeling like I was tied to something that I knew that I had to break free from, but I really couldn't articulate it. But then I also didn't want to disappoint. And I had responsibilities because the project was a passion project for me. I gave everything, including my own financial self to it. And so that was a part of the responsibility aspect as well. But I think generally, I'm speaking about the onset of finding out that you have cancer or any type of debilitating disease. Right.

[00:13:33] Now, almost nine years of remission later, speaking, I've interviewed 200 cancer survivors for my book. And I have an interview series where I did. I speak to the 200 cancer survivors. The book was 35 of their stories. But it's just a common thread that for some reason, there was this level of not wanting to go deeper within self. Like it was more of, I don't want to feel the pain. I don't want to feel the anxiety.

[00:14:02] I don't want to feel the stress or the weight of it all. But I found through my work that the key there is to really release, catch and release. I think that's what we're here to do. And we're here to really figure out what that actually means to us. So it's not as easy as like, bye. It's more of, I can't hold on to this anymore. I can't hold on to the baggage anymore. I need to let it. This is too personal. Just tell me. I don't mean to pry. But do you use that same approach, so to speak?

[00:14:32] Like I mentioned before, my husband's a cancer survivor. And I know that there's fear that it's going to come back or something's going to come. So do you use that same approach now to manage that fear? Absolutely. Scan anxiety is a real thing. People don't understand unless you've been through it. It is. It's sometimes a week or two before. It's the day of. It's the day after because you had to wait for these tests and, you know, the results. You feel fine, but you don't know what to test.

[00:15:00] And I really, I boil it down very simply to people, including myself, because I have to go through my own process with this, even though I'm in remission nine years, could always come back. I know this to be a fact. I hope it doesn't, but it could. Is that, is this idea of what can you control and what can't you control? You cannot control a test. You cannot control the numbers. Even doctors don't know. Oh, that's why they do biopsies and all these wonderful medically focused things.

[00:15:28] What you can control is your emotions, your mental, your faith, or your level of understanding with the world, your relationships with other people. What is it that you want to create? I was on a panel actually, maybe a couple of months ago at this point, and it was stage four pancreatic cancer patients, not survivors. So it's not really my audience. And one of them said, listen, I've tried everything. They've actually told I only have a couple of months to live. Now, these are all the patients.

[00:15:56] So they're all pretty much have been told that it's the last straw. And I said to him, I wanted to dig deep within myself. And I said, I could either just say what doctors have told them, which is you have X amount of time to live, or I could actually give him some level of hope or understanding. And I said, if I waved a magic wand and took away your cancer today, is there anything that you could do? What would you do? And he's like, he'd rattle off a couple of things. I'm like, okay. So from that list, is there anything that you could do that you could move the needle

[00:16:26] just a little bit? He goes, yeah, I can do that. And I can do that. And I'm like, okay. Well, so it's not over until it's over. There's something called radical remission. Doctors can only go by the science. Healing, and I tell people all the time, I am equipped to say this because I've studied the work, is healing occurs highs and lows. It doesn't always occur in the medical office. It doesn't always occur in the chemo bed. It occurs in many ways that people throughout ages have sought, and it could occur while you're sleeping.

[00:16:54] I think the key is for us is trying to find where that healing is and for us to do the work in order for that healing to come to us. And so he was really grateful because he's like, you gave me this level of hope that at the end of the day, my story, and I told him, doctors can take away something from you by telling you that this is a situation. And it's real. I'm not discounting it. But at the end of the day, your story is your story. No one can take that away from you.

[00:17:24] And so maybe the work is for you to tell your story in some fashion or some way. It doesn't have to be this great lofty book. It could just be some things that you write down on paper or in your computer. Wow. Very true. I was wondering, I know you also talk about learning to love your inner stranger in your TED Talk. So could you tell us a little bit about that? Sure. So my TEDx Talk, like you mentioned, it's called Seven Minutes to Wellness, How to Love Your

[00:17:53] Inner Stranger. And the origin story of that is the Savio. So I saw Savio myself physically dying, stage three, bedridden for a week because of the nephrostomy tube, possible for 15 days total. And I'm like, okay, well, this physical self is not doing so well right now. It's basically dying. And then I'm like, wait a minute, but my mental acuity is still there. I created a Google alert for my disease. I was researching my disease.

[00:18:20] I was looking at all the resources you could possibly look for. And then I'm like, wait, my emotional center is still there. I still care about myself, my family. I had four roommates in those 15 days. Two of them had brain cancer. I care for their welfare. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, wait, my dreams are pretty vivid and alive. My spirituality is very intact. I believe in something greater than this shell that we have.

[00:18:45] And I'm like, okay, well, how do I pull the Savio that's dying into those greater areas or parts of myself? And that's where the origin story of the stranger came in. And I left it intentionally vague because I want people for themselves to express what that means. So someone else expressed to them, to me, that the stranger to them is that idealized version of themselves that they just can't seem to grasp, but they always try to reach. And it's not about success. It's more about what they see the vision of themselves to be.

[00:19:13] So I make it very clear that the inner stranger is not the inner critic that's pounding you or like the inner child that it could be. It doesn't have to be. But it's something that's a little different from what you see. A Buddhist perspective of it told me that the inner stranger to them was, if you believe in this sort of thing, a past life. It's something that they have tried to learn in this life that you just can't seem to grasp at and that they are trying to meet and they think of it as something that's fearful.

[00:19:42] But yet, what's a stranger? A stranger is someone that you just don't know that could be a friend, could be a foe, but we can always see where that goes. Another person expressed to me, the stranger to them is we're all living a physical life here in this world. But the stranger to them is like that divine self that can never be erased or can never go away. That's totally immortal. And so I left it intentionally vague because I wanted people to think rather than just be told.

[00:20:11] But you have to kind of figure out what that definition is for yourself, right? And then you learn to love it. Is that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you learn to love it. And I have an acronym. So basically, in my search for healing, I went, hi, Lo, Michelle, I researched everything you could think of when it comes to the world of healing. And I uncovered a healing modality in Hawaii called Huna Healing. It's an ancient healing modality. And there's an offshoot of that healing modality called Ho'oponopono.

[00:20:38] And I couldn't really get into the basics of Ho'oponopono. Basically, it's just repetitive affirmations that one says. TEDx is very clear that when it comes to health and wellness, the people they put on the stage are people that it's documented cases of anything relating to health and wellness have to be documented. And so Ho'oponopono is really this idea of just saying, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you. It's just constantly people are saying it.

[00:21:05] But my use of that was to simplify it. And so I created an acronym called the Aloha Reboot. As we all know, Aloha means hello. So it's a hello to your inner self. And A stands for acknowledge. So acknowledge where you are. Don't pretend. Don't think that it's not. Just face reality. What's the situation? L stands for listening. So listen to that inner voice. In Huna Healing, they talk a lot about speaking to the different body parts.

[00:21:32] As being vehicles of knowingness or awareness or consciousness. I do work where I simplify it once again. I call it the three brains, head, heart, and gut. And so it's really about speaking to those parts of your body. Because there are anecdotal evidence that shows that those areas of the body speak to us. It just has a knowingness. How many times have people said, I feel with my gut? Or when you make buying decisions, you feel with your emotions. You're not really always thinking very logically.

[00:21:59] So that's what listening, that's what the L in Aloha means. O means for opening. So open yourself up to self-compassion and self-forgiveness. That was a thread throughout all my interviews, 200 to date of cancer survivors. They all talked about this idea of self-forgiveness and self-compassion. Because I know for myself, I'm great at being very understanding and kind to other people. But to myself, I'm a little hard. So it's really about acknowledging that aspect. H stands for harnessing.

[00:22:28] So harness that wisdom that you have from within. And A, the most important is to act with inspired action. So create those ways and means in order to do that. So on the listening aspect of that, are you doing that through meditation? Or just sitting in silence? Or how do you try to get in tune with that? Sure. So I don't like to give people any prescriptive ways to do it. Because people, when you say you want to meditate, they're thinking it's this whole lotus position, 20 minutes. No, it could be simple.

[00:22:57] Like you said, simply just sitting, listen to instrumental music. It could just be vegging out. However you want to call it. People have used meditation, chanting, prayer, quiet time, humming, whatever is really the one that's going to allow you to detach from the external world and really allow yourself to attach yourself to the internal world. That's really, if you was to put everything in a nutshell, and it's the last thing I say

[00:23:27] in my TEDx talk, which is to know thyself is to heal thyself. It's the cornerstone of everything that I've done and created. So I'm curious. I know you said to listen to the head, heart, and gut, but do you also talk to the affected body part? I mean, are you trying to listen to it as well? Or? Yeah. This gets really murky because when people are like, well, are you telling us to create things in our head? And that's the problem with this is that, no, no, I just want to be clear. Or because then people are like, well, I'm just making up stuff.

[00:23:56] Yeah, that's the problem. So I leave it to the big areas of ourselves. And there's, like I said, evidence, and there is findings for these that the head, heart, and gut do have some level of knowingness or consciousness or awareness. And so I start from there. Speaking to the different other different body parts, I think that's just subject, like that's just personal choice. I also think when it comes to that, it's not as simple as I'm asking you a question and it's giving me an answer. It could not give you anything.

[00:24:26] It could just be in the form of images or sensations or feelings or shapes or colors. It doesn't have to be an actual verbal response because where's that response coming from? So I think it's really about taking the time to just be still with yourself in order to understand yourself better. And so however, whichever and however it comes to be, that's really, you know, by choice. Yeah, very true.

[00:24:55] And I guess I was asking a little bit on a personal level because I have a child that had surgery back in February and she's still not healing from that surgery. And I think your message goes way beyond personally. I feel like it goes way beyond just cancer patients. It's anybody that's searching for healing, right? That of any kind at the broad perspective, I know you focus on cancer patients, but I see it as help for everybody, hope for everybody. And you know what? Thank you for saying that. Yes.

[00:25:24] So I, so most of my clients are cancer survivors is the reason why, because I feel like doctors do what they do. And I know people, I know someone who's a cancer doula who works with cancer patients, but because of my TEDx talk and because of the great reception I've received, I've had to expand my speaking opportunities and engagements to now be more inclusive with just individuals who've, who've faced and have overcome some type of medical adversity in their lives, whatever that is.

[00:25:54] Because that allows, like you said, individuals to grasp at these concepts and allow them to, to feel like they can move the needle a little further. So in response to what you said about your child, who in a healing, let's put it this way, would say, yes, speak to that. Speak to that area of the body that you feel that had the most pain or that is not healing properly. And see what insights may come from it.

[00:26:21] Nothing may come from it, but I don't really think it's about something not coming from it. It's really about you putting the intention towards it so that you can give it the space it needs to breathe. That's really the key. Yeah. Very good. And like I said, I do think your message gives hope to a lot of people. And I think that that's the beauty in all this, right? I mean, is giving people hope that they can heal. Yeah. So I thank you for that for sure. Thank you.

[00:26:46] I wanted to ask you what your take on what resilience means, what it means to you. So I, because I'm a journalist, I actually have an interview series called Rising Through Resilience. At this point, probably over 125 thought leaders and experts in the field of resilience. And large portion, most people know resilience is what? Bouncing back. Right. Standing up in the face of something, something just insurmountable.

[00:27:13] Allowing themselves to be seen, heard, know in the face of something that was really devastating. But in the interviews I've done and the research that I've done, and even my own personal experience, I've come to see resilience as the opposite of gratitude in a way. Because a friend actually called me a few weeks ago and said to me, you know, she knows my work. She's like, Savio, I just got diagnosed with cancer. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. She's like, listen, she's like, listen, you know, my life hasn't been good.

[00:27:43] It's really been hard. And now I have cancer. She's like, honestly, I don't even think it's worth it for me to even go get treatment. I don't think it's worth the fight. And Michelle, I'll be honest. Now, I wasn't her coach. I was just the person she knows who, you know, a friend of hers. And I paused and I said, okay, I could do two things, right? I could let her say what she needs to say and agree with her, which was horrible, right? Not the right thing to do on any level.

[00:28:10] But I wanted to allow herself to see herself in a way reflected. So I said, okay, well, yeah, you know, you've expressed to me, I know your life. I know your history. I go to her, if you do want to do treatment, what would you be fighting for? And she paused and she listed a couple of things. She's like, okay, like, so is that worth going through the treatment with? She's like, I think so. I'm like, okay, well, then there you have it, right? It could be as simple as that.

[00:28:38] And that to me is the epitome of resilience, is allowing yourself to see yourself, not only because in coaching, we call it the vision. The vision is not a goal. It's about how you want to be seen and be experienced and feel within yourself. That's what coaches do best. They allow people to see the vision. Rather than just the goal, rather than just these little milestones. And so for her, I wanted her to see herself as maybe that this came into her life for whatever reason,

[00:29:06] as a way to grasp at something that she never really had before, which is a zest for living. Because she just didn't really have it. She's been through so much. And so gratitude comes into play because what are you grateful for then if you do survive it? And so you have to ask yourself that question. And in my trainings, because I do a lot of body work, I took a training with a University of Pennsylvania professor. And he talked about gratitude. He said, gratitude lists are wonderful.

[00:29:34] And he's like, you know, one way to one-up the gratitude list is to ask every question on your list. Why did that thing happen? So I'm grateful for the home that I have. Why did that happen? I'm grateful for it because I saved and I worked really hard. And I created this from the work that I did. And it allows you to have a level of savoriness. It allows you to think and dig into it much deeper, which I think is very profound.

[00:30:03] So to answer your question, resilience to me is the opposite of gratitude in a sense. Because it allows you to really know why is it that you're fighting for anything? Why is it that you've been trying to rise above the circumstance or the problem? Okay. Yeah, that's very interesting. I hadn't really thought of it in that term. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious also, and this may be an odd question, but do you feel since you've interviewed so many

[00:30:31] people and you're a coach to so many people, do you feel like part of healing is just, I mean, the foundation possibly is the person believing that they can heal? Because I think a lot of people like your friend, she might've given up because at first she didn't think it was even possible. So why bother? Yeah. And I, you know, I'm wondering if that's the first foundation is just believing that it is possible.

[00:30:57] I can just tell you my experience and what I know from others, my experience, I counted, I had 19 doctors in 15 days. I counted them. Wow. I don't know. I don't know how I was so lucky to have 19 doctors, but they kept getting in and out of, I'm sure some of them was in residency. I have no idea. I didn't ask them. They just kept asking me questions. I counted and I had to get a bone marrow aspiration. You probably know what that is. Yeah. I wanted to make sure that things were good. And two of the doctors came in and they're like, listen, this is very, very, very, very painful.

[00:31:27] People have spat at us, kicked at us, yelled at us, said expletives at us, done anything. We're ready for it. I'm like, okay. So they did it. And I just remember sweating profusely and that's it. And they're like, they looked at me, they're like, wait, they're like, we've done this unfortunately for hundreds of people. You just didn't do anything. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, yeah. I'm like, what am I supposed to do crumble here? Like you have a job to do. I need to meet you where you are.

[00:31:57] I'm here for healing. You're the healer right now in my life. So I need to meet you where the energy is. So I knew even back then for myself that I had to give myself a fighting chance to overcome this. So I didn't know how that was going to happen. I didn't even know if it was going to happen, but I knew as long as I did the part that I needed to do, which is allow myself to be healed, allow myself to see the vision. As a matter of fact, when the medical director told me and I accepted the middle way and said

[00:32:24] yes to the chemo, which was like three days before I left the hospital, I knew for myself that I had to reframe that chemo as something else. So I reframed it as an elixir, as something that was a potent source of healing. And as opposed to something that's going to eradicate the cancer or kill this or kill that, I knew even back then, even though I didn't have the language that I had to allow myself to feel greater and be her.

[00:32:50] But this is not as simple as that because I tell the story because I had, I mentioned I had four roommates. And the last one was like, he had brain cancer. He had radiation the next day. And all he kept doing was yelling and screaming at the doctors and nurses to just get him out of there. And I'm like, so when they left, I'm like, can I ask you a question? I don't know you. It's probably none of my business, but you're here for healing, right? He's like, yeah. He's like, I'm like, what do you want to get home for? You have like radiation tomorrow. He's like, my dog.

[00:33:19] And I'm like, I was so confused. So he left the room, called my friend and she's like, Sabio, you don't get it. I'm like, what do you mean? She goes, he's scared he's going to die. He doesn't have the perspective you have. And I'm like, oh my God, it was the greatest lesson in compassion and empathy that I've ever gotten. Because even in the fact that I was so low in stage three and not knowing and my family was a wreck, I said to myself, what a beautiful lesson to get.

[00:33:49] Even if this is not going to go my way, what a beautiful lesson to get. And so I knew, I even knew back then. Yeah, that is a beautiful lesson for sure. I know my husband, just a tidbit of his journey is, I know one thing he did was he refused to see any other outcome other than the positive. He wouldn't even let his mind go there. He says, he doesn't talk about it much, which is something I wanted to ask on your journey.

[00:34:17] Do you see a difference between how the men deal with it and how the women deal with it? Or? 100%. I'll tell you right now, the men want to know the science. And so like, okay, you want to know my training? Positive psychology will go there. You want to talk about self-regulation theory? Regulating will go there. You want to talk about the Travis illness continuum? What's wellness? What's illness? Is illness lacking wellness? Is wellness greater than illness? We can talk about that. They want to talk about that other stuff rather than talking about what's inside.

[00:34:45] So it's no surprise to me that most of my clients are female because the men, and I think it's shifting. And I'll tell you why. Because I ended up doing something called a men's retreat in 2019. So it was five years after my remission status. That's when I decided that I would give myself permission to do stuff with what just happened to me. Because in those five years, and you know, it's never a guarantee. It's less likely to occur. It could still occur, but it's less likely to. So I'm like, okay, press the on button then.

[00:35:12] But I attended a men's retreat in the Catskills here in New York. And I'm like, what's a men's retreat? I didn't even know what I was getting myself into. It's 18 guys, regular guys. And we were there. We did these exercises. One of them was gazing into another man's eyes. What? What's that? Oh, wow. And literally, like, it's not a staring contest. Like, who's going to, like, move first? But it was more about connection and finding deep connection with someone. And then we did something really interesting. We put our hands on each other's hearts.

[00:35:42] And then our heartbeats sort of synced in, which was very odd. We did these outdoor nature, nature immersions. Individuals talked about writing letters to their fathers or to someone that they want to say something to, but they couldn't really say it to. You know, this was done by professionals who knew what they were doing. And also just allowing themselves to purge, whether that's crying, yelling, screaming. And it was so eye-opening to me.

[00:36:08] And it was just so beautiful because we had dinners together and just talking, just letting complete guards down. And I think, unfortunately, the fact that especially when something devastating happens to you, you clam up rather than clam out. And so my job or what I feel I'm called to do is to allow people to really express that in any which way that they feel compelled to express that. And so I just made it a point to just be really good at what I do in order for that safe container,

[00:36:36] that safe space to come into play. So the fact that your husband doesn't want to talk about it is not surprising to me, but not that I'm telling him to do something. But I will say I think it's going to help him in the long run to allow himself to release some of the things that he's kept bottled in because we all keep things bottled in. I don't care who you are. There's no such thing as not. That's why I think most of our pain and sorrow comes from the stuff that we do to ourselves

[00:37:05] rather than what other people do to us. Absolutely. And being a female, I think females cope with things by talking about it. And he'll say, that's behind me. Why do I need to spend time on it? But I'm with you. I think it would do him wonders if he did talk about it. But there's that resistance. It's a work in progress and it's to be continued. Absolutely.

[00:37:32] I know the cancer journey from the caregiver perspective. How often do you encounter caregivers or do you talk to them in your coaching and in your book? Did you interview any of them? I didn't interview any caregivers, but I will say I had a new perspective. So at this point, I mentioned 200 cancer survivors is who I had for my interview series.

[00:37:55] One of the key questions I asked my interview series was, if cancer had a message for you, what would that message be? And most of them were like, what? What are you talking about? Oh, this is like, I want to get it away from me. It's like the, it's like the, it's like the wicked witch. It's like the big bad wolf. And I'm like, okay. So if cancer had a message for you, what would that be? And someone like, oh my God, I didn't even think about what it might show me or what it might direct me to, what it might give me that I would have never seen.

[00:38:25] Like I can speak from personal experience. I would have never thought I would be a coach, someone who covers wellness or like medical adversity, someone who wrote a book about cancer survivorship, someone who did a TEDx talk where they talked about their cancer and what they gleaned from other people's cancers or other people's face to face with something devastating in their lives. And when some of them sat themselves in and really tried to answer that question, they realized, wow, this is huge.

[00:38:53] But what I learned from their stories are beautiful because I didn't use community with my cancer. I saw it as a challenge, as something I needed to do for myself, as my own cross to bear. Even though my mom and my dad were great and my sisters were great, I just said, I need to see what this is doing to me and what it has been doing to me. And I need to find my way towards that maze. I need to find an answer to that.

[00:39:19] But a large portion of them said that they used their friends and relatives as scribes when they went to doctor's appointments, which is like beautiful because they're like, it was so overwhelming to hear the next steps and this. And they felt like they were doing a job for them. They're like, oh, yeah, I can definitely write stuff down. And so they helped them in that way to alleviate some of the stress and some of the pain. A large portion of some of the other caregivers, I remember this one story where she spoke about the fact that she was, after every chemo, she was a wreck, complete wreck. And all she wanted to do was sleep.

[00:39:49] And her husband would come around 9 o'clock at night and he would just make the food for the next day. And he would just really love on her because he just didn't know how else to support her. So I think when it comes to caregivers, they're going through their own situation and no one's really kind of there for them. And they don't know if they should talk about it or not talk about it or talk about it this way or that way. And I think to a large degree, a large portion of them felt like they went through their own level of cancer.

[00:40:19] Not as potent as what their spouse or what their friend or what their lover is going through, but more of the sense that something has been taken away from them or something is rotting within them that they need to see, fix, heal, and maybe to some degree release. Yeah, from my personal perspective, I think you're 100% right.

[00:40:42] And I think a lot of times when someone's going through something, if we really love that person, we always think or sometimes voice, I wish I could take that on for you so you didn't have to do that. And in my own situation, I tried to take over everything so he didn't have to worry about anything other than getting well. But in that process, I don't know how to explain it. You overwhelm yourself.

[00:41:08] And one thing we never did that I would like to tell anyone listening that's, whether they're the one going through it or they're the caregiver, is seek support. Seek that support group. Seek someone such as yourself. Someone to help support you as you support them. Because I've had a lot of health problems since all of this. And I think, you know, sometimes I wonder, was it because I'm not blaming him or the situation? And I don't mean to sound that way at all.

[00:41:37] It's just you wonder what you put yourself through. And you don't give yourself an outlet because you're too worried about being an outlet for someone else. So, yeah, there's a lot to the caregiver part, I feel. You're absolutely right. Right. It's very tricky because, and someone actually expressed this in one of my interviews, the fact that they kept getting bombarded by people asking them, how'd you cancer? Like, they're like, I don't want to talk about cancer. Like, can we talk about like the television show that we used to talk about before I had cancer?

[00:42:05] And to a large degree, some of them also even felt that the focus was so much on them and their cancer rather than something that brought them joy. Right. Because talking about cancer doesn't bring anyone anything. I don't care if you survived it. Talking about it just doesn't make people feel good. And so a large portion of them really felt like, well, am I overstepping my bounds?

[00:42:32] Am I doing something that's really going to help them or it's really impeding their progress? And one of them actually said something really beautiful, which was, why don't you put the onus on the cancer survivor? Why don't you ask the cancer survivor, what do you want to talk about today? As opposed to you feeling because they have cancer, let's talk about cancer. And it's true. Ask them. See what they say. See what they want to express today. See what's going on in their own lives. Right.

[00:42:55] And I think that's huge, actually, because as the caregiver, you don't want to ignore the elephant in the room, but yet you're afraid to bring it up. And so you don't know what to do. And the solution is just to ask them. But for some reason, that solution kind of eludes you at the time, you know. Well, yeah, because we live in this world where if someone's hurting, we want to help them. Exactly. Like if a child is defenseless and can't do spur, we want to help them.

[00:43:24] And so I just think it's just a natural human trait of virus. But I just thought what they said made a lot of sense. Ask them. Put the onus on them. See what they want to talk about. Oh, it absolutely does. Like, do you want to just talk about something as frivolous as like, I don't know, like, I don't know, something like, you know, the latest, I don't know, lotto winner. I don't know, let's talk about something that doesn't mean anything like that. Exactly. I've read a lot where they say humor helps. Yes. Tremendously, too.

[00:43:54] So watching something funny or. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Actually, one of the people I interviewed, his name is Rob Paulson. He's a Hollywood voice actor. So he's on Peaky in the Brain Animaniacs. And he had a double because he had cancer and he had throat cancer. Oh, wow. So he does voices. So affect his livelihood and hit for him. It was like, oh, my God, cancer. And it's affecting what I love to do. I love to do voices. But he survived it. But they actually said to him, they said, Rob, we're going to have to kill you before we can cure you. Wow.

[00:44:23] And so what he decided to do is he's like, what's my greatest strength? My greatest strength is voices and making people laugh. So he's like, I would make them laugh so that I could laugh so that I could get through the pain. Unfortunately or fortunately, however you want to look at it right now, he says he's still alive. He still works in Hollywood. But he said food is no longer a luxury. It doesn't bring him much joy. But he's like, I'm still here. I'm still doing what I need to do. And let's be candid here. My cancer was a blood cancer. So I tell people all the time, you cannot see my scars.

[00:44:52] I mean, my veins were so good back then that I didn't even need a port, which was like shocking. Wow. I didn't even need one. Now, of course, they're hiding. But at the end of the day, when I read stories and when I interview these people, and they tell me they've lost their breast, they've lost their colon, they've lost their throat, they cannot pretend that it's not there. Right. It's not there. But then the question is, okay, now what? Now how do you want to express yourself in the real world?

[00:45:19] And so my joy as a journalist and as a coach and as an author, and now it's TEDx speaker, is allow people to amplify their message, tell their stories, allow them to regain a new perspective of themselves and create from like a personal perspective or professional perspective, their new 2.0 version. As someone once called, a client of mine once called, like that new self that they're trying to emulate. And from that, I think this idea of leadership comes into play because what's a leader? It's someone that people follow.

[00:45:48] But how do you allow people to follow you? You allow yourself to give yourself as much ingredients, as much empowerment as possible so others will not want to just follow you, but they would want to emulate you or be you in a way or live your same lifestyle. Because a large portion of how we learn in general is through mirroring. It's like the social support theory aspect, right? We learn through our associations and how life is in our little bubble, in our little world.

[00:46:16] So through writing your book and interviewing all of these folks, did you see patterns of coping? Like do many of them go on to help other people such as yourself? Please. I was so happy in my book. So my book was a combination. It was actually my editor's idea. So the book is called I Survived Cancer. Here is how I did it. So it was initially an interview series, like I said, 200. And then my editor came to me, said, this has to be a book. So we launched a book under his publishing arm. I took 35 of their stories, told my own.

[00:46:46] Same title. I Survived Cancer. Here is how I did it. But this time it's 35 cancer survivors share their journey. I shared my own. I shared theirs. And yeah, there was a lot of stuff in there was really about the fact of what do they try? Like this happened to them, right? I'm not pretending that it didn't happen. It happened to me. I lost what I lost. But now what?

[00:47:06] And so I consciously wanted them to talk about their business or the charity group that they started or some type of dot-com company. So I wanted them to express themselves in that way. And I made sure that they included a website or QR code because I wanted people to know that they're not just survivors. They're not just living. They're thriving. They're actually doing stuff. You can actually research them. Go on the internet, see that they're still doing these things.

[00:47:35] Some of them had documentaries on Netflix. Some of them, you know, it was just beautiful to see the level of empowerment that they showed despite what life has brought to them. And I just knew that I had to handle that with care. And I just had to know for myself that I wanted to tell a diverse story. So I made sure that not only were the cancers diverse or the gender was diverse, but also their ethnicity.

[00:48:02] And because honestly, it was very hard for me to get Black men to talk about their cancer. Wow. In my interview series, maybe I can count on one hand how many Black men really wanted to speak to it. So I think it's hopefully changing, but it's a slow progression. Do you think, and I don't mean this offensive in any way, but do you think it's a Black male thing or do you think it's a male thing? Because I see it with my husband as well, who's Caucasian.

[00:48:31] And it's like, he doesn't want to talk about it. I think it's a male thing. So I think it's the umbrella of the male thing and lets you and I be hopeful that that changes. But I also think it is a person of color thing. Okay. So I did not get, so I had a lot of females who were Black who wanted to speak to it. Okay. But that was less than the females who were Caucasian wanted to speak to it. But the male Caucasians wanted to speak to it.

[00:48:59] So I think it's a combination of the two, unfortunately. But I just remember thinking I need more diversity and I just couldn't find it. So do they have a perceived stigma? No, I think it's that. I think it's a perceived stigma. I also think they don't have any, not role models. There's no such thing as a cancer role model, although there's some people who do say that they are. I don't think there's anyone that they see themselves as or can emulate words or no one's coming out there in the forefront. I actually interviewed Ice-T.

[00:49:27] So I'm a journalist who covers lifestyle and wellness, and he had a business venture and his PR person had cancer and was really gung-ho on his initiative too. And he mentioned to me, he told me, he goes, male, Black, and then add the hip hop industry to that. And it's like crickets. No one wants to talk about it. So he's like, I'm trying to help people spread the word or get checked or whatever they need to do. Absolutely.

[00:49:56] But he's like, it's just, it's been very hard, even with the clout and the doors that he has access to. But I really do hope that people just realize at the end of the day, we're all seeking some level of vitality and health and wellness. So it doesn't really matter what form it sort of comes in on. I think we should just let our guards down, go inside, figure out what we actually need for ourselves and get the support that we need.

[00:50:26] There's so many tools and resources, therapists, coaches, not even that, but online resources that you can really allow yourself to gain access to. Because I'm quoting another ancient saying, but only the truth shall shut you free. And I think that the truth of the matter is we don't get to pick and choose what happens in our lives. We get to pick and choose how we respond to it. And so the response has to come from within and then you go from without, because at the end of the day, it's always an inside job.

[00:50:55] It's never an external job. Like doctors can do their wonderful things. And I love, they're my saviors. They saved me. But I also think it's because I took the ownership of doing the other things that really helps speed up my healing. Because I was diagnosed in July of 2014. I did six rounds of chemo in between those three weeks. I did a whole bunch of integrative modalities and then literally five days before Christmas that same year. So four and a half months later, I got my remission status this December. It's been nine years of remission. Wow. Congratulations.

[00:51:26] Thank you. This July will be 10 years since I got diagnosed. That's awesome. And I think another key to something you just said is to remember that your truth may set someone else free also. Not only set you free, but it, you know, someone may need to hear that story and that may be the aha moment for them. And that's huge. Yeah. And at the end of the day, I'm not discounting the fact that people are still in the struggle. Yeah. I know people, I've lost many people to cancer.

[00:51:56] I've lost many people to just diseases in general, silent diseases, any type of medical adversity that's really completely debilitating in their lives. I'm not diminishing that because as I mentioned, scan anxiety is a real thing. I get scanned. Things come up. I think the key there is just have the faith and have the focus and have the knowingness that whatever comes in our way, that we'll find a way around it, in it, over it.

[00:52:26] Correction. A good friend actually mentioned to me, he speaks a lot about discomfort and he says the only way through discomfort is through discomfort. It's not around, over, above, or underneath. It's actually through it. And so if I can leave your listeners with that, that's really the key. And I'm speaking for myself as well, because I'm a survivor and I hope to be a survivor for a really long time. Absolutely. But at the end of the day, the reality is the reality. I was just going to ask what you thought the biggest lesson you've learned through this

[00:52:55] journey is, and maybe it's that what you just said. I don't know. It's probably a combination of all that, but I think the biggest for me personally, because I was like fiercely independent, Michelle. Like seriously, I was the guy in my early twenties who took a trip to Australia by himself. Like what? Like this is the nineties taking a trip to Australia. This is like, not now, like where like so many services are available where you had like GPS, right? I, for myself really feel like it's two things that cancer taught me and it's still teaching

[00:53:23] me is one, this idea of vulnerability, being really vulnerable to a lot of people to help me. Cause that wasn't very easy for me to ask people to help me. And I didn't even ask them. Some of them just wanted to help me. Like my dad's like, can I come with you to the chemo? I'm like, dad, you staring at me for five to six hours in a chemo bed is not going to help me, my friend. It's just not, but you want to pick me up. Great. Because you know, they advise people not to drive because you're just too. Right.

[00:53:51] So I think that, and then the author and speaker, Brene Brown, who I cherish her work, a large portion of what cancer came into my life and showed me was shame. And it's very weird to people and some people won't understand, but to me, that's what cancer brought into my life is to feel into the shame. I felt that I was less than like my sister in California was actually in town that same week that I got diagnosed, strangely enough. And she's like, let's get cousins and uncles and let's have them all come and pray on you.

[00:54:18] And I'm like, no, that's not really going to help me. And I think a large portion is that I felt like a zoo animal. And I speak to this in my TEDx talk about feeling like a zoo animal on display. I'm like, it's not over. They didn't say it's at the end of the road and you need to call in relatives to give me my last rights or anything like that. And so it was really years later that I had to unravel the shame of feeling less than or

[00:54:44] feeling like I screwed up something in my life that I cannot live to my responsibilities or that I let people down or I let myself down. And it probably doesn't mean much to most people, but I did hear echoes of shame and those interviews that I've done with cancer survivors that really filtered in the conversations. And as you say that, I can see that even from our mind and my husband's experience.

[00:55:08] And I never really understood it because looking from the outside in, you realize there's no shame. He didn't ask for this. He didn't want this, but he felt something like it. I can't even explain it except for maybe shame or weakness as the other word that comes to mind. Yeah. He felt like it was a weakness. And it's like, but you had nothing to do with this.

[00:55:34] I mean, it's still, I mean, it's listen, I, I had to recently go see an ENT and of course something as routine as that. Wait, wait, you're a B cell lymphoma survivor. And it's just this whole, it's now this whole thing. So you feel uncomfortable. Like I appreciate the fact that he's being diligent. I appreciate the fact that he's being cautious. It's not about what he's doing. It's more about what I'm feeling because now I feel like I've been branded.

[00:56:02] So I used to say very early on, I don't say it anymore that, you know, like Hester Prynne in like a SCART letter. Like I felt like I always had this big C on me for the first five years. Like everyone could see I'm a cancer survivor. Now I'm in a club. I never thought I could, I would ever want to be in. And now I'm on this club. And now because people can see the C, it just creates more resistance, right? It creates this, this, you know, this barrier. But I think that too is a work in progress and I'm learning as I go along as well.

[00:56:31] Well, I love your mission and I love your journey. And I have to ask, is there anything that I haven't asked or anything that we haven't talked about that you would want to make sure that the listeners here today? I think we talked a lot. We talked about the science, about feelings and maybe more feelings than we needed to talk about. But I think really just effectively your listeners with a few things would be some of the gems. So I mentioned that I had the privilege of interviewing so many really great people. One of them was Venus Williams.

[00:56:59] And I mentioned her because people look at her as the epitome of sports, but she's been going through her own gastrointestinal issues. And she said it impeded her ability to perform. Wow. And that to me was very great because she let her guard down. But she also spoke to this idea that we often create these illusions of people, right? I recently, as a journalist, was invited to the Oscars to cover the red carpet. I was there. Oh, wow. And what did I write in my newsletter? This idea of belonging.

[00:57:27] Even though I've been vetted and wanted to go, do I belong in a sea of Hollywood's elite? Do I actually belong there? And I actually wrote about it. So I have a weekly newsletter. It's like a newsletter community that I write. And I write about the head, heart, and gut. And I'm very honest about what I'm feeling and sensing. That was something that came very strongly to me is this idea of belonging. And then even in my personal endeavors and professional endeavors, I was in India with National Geographic for like eight cities covering an experience there, which is beautiful, and in Italy.

[00:57:57] And my friends are always like, wait, you're doing all these wonderful things. You're sure you're working? And I think it's very interesting because people think of wellness as an extra rather than something that should be a cornerstone. I think if one thing that COVID showed us is the fact that we need to be more preventative minded. We need to be more focused on something that we can control rather than something that's exteriorly that we feel we can't control.

[00:58:24] And so I could just leave your listeners with this idea of just taking ownership and onus or accountability or responsibility, however you want to frame it. I think it would go a long way in allowing other people to be free of their own situations. Absolutely. And you made me think of something else because you were on a wellness journey before this happened. So your body was probably in very good shape and that probably helped you overcome this as well.

[00:58:51] So people need to be mindful of that, that the healthier you are, if something does happen, the better your survival. So yeah, a hundred. And that's why I think my editor trusts me to write about, I have seven different interview series. I started first off with cancer survivorship, then five things from a doctor perspective, from an oncology perspective, you need to know that I went into rising through resilience, then I went into longevity, then I went to fear of failure because I wanted people to

[00:59:17] move into this idea of what is externally that's blocking them, what that they feel like they can't pierce to. Because really the key is it's a mirror for what's going on from our inside. So if you feel like something is blocking you from getting forward, ask yourself the question, dig deep within and ask yourself the question, what do I have resistance towards that's not allowing me to move forward? That's very good. And I think we could apply that to many different situations as well. So thank you. Yeah.

[00:59:46] Sure. Absolutely. And I definitely, I've enjoyed our conversation and I definitely appreciate your experience and your wisdom and that you're willing to share it with all of us. So. Sure. Absolutely. If everyone wants to know more information about me, they can always go to my website. It's Savio, S-A-V-I-O, P is my middle initial, Clemente, C-L-E-M-E-N-T-E.com. There you can see my TEDx talk. I think at this point I only have one or two slots available for my 90-day coaching program.

[01:00:13] So it's about medical adversity and overcoming and seeing yourself as a leader in that regard. Wow. Because of the fact that I'm balancing so many other things in my life, which is a good thing, but I promise I'm not burning out. I'm not overwhelming myself, thankfully. And then also that newsletter where I talk about, you know, things weekly, they can sign up for it. It's my Substack newsletter. That's on my website. And then if they want to follow me on social media, I'm at every platform, TikTok, Instagram at the human resolve. That's awesome. Yeah. That was actually going to be my next question.

[01:00:43] How can people find you? And I will definitely put all of that in the show notes, make it easier for them to find you. And any last thing that you want to let us know? So I think in that conversation, I'm going to circle back where I talked to those cancer patients, not really my audience, but is that we talked about this idea of legacy. And when we used to think of legacy, it was always like, this person's older. What are they going to, you know, what grandpa, what's grandpa's legacy?

[01:01:11] But I think, you know, as well as I do, there's so many things happening in our world. There's all these surveys and reports that are saying that kids in their 20s are getting cancer. So I think we need to ask ourselves is, how are we showing up in the world? And not more about what our legacy is, because some people will say, well, why do I care if I'm dead? It's not about the word legacy in that respect, but it's more about how are you showing up in the world?

[01:01:37] And how are people perceiving you in order to create more of a momentum of positivity? And the word positivity is used interchangeably. But I think that's the key, right? It's like if we have more self-control or self-reliance and allow ourselves to be seen as something greater or like reach our aspirations or reach those milestones that we all created, it just allows people to really grasp at those things and say that's possible for them as well. Right.

[01:02:05] Because as I say, people don't learn from what you say. They learn by watching you, right? They learn from what you do. And I think it was it Maya Angelou? I could be mistaken, but they said that it's not it's people don't always hear. No, people don't always listen to what you say. It's about how you made them feel. And I think that's really the key there. I think that definitely is. So thank you very much. I appreciate it. And thank you. It's been awesome. Thank you. All right. Thanks, Michelle.

[01:02:35] I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye. As we wrap up today's episode, I hope Savio sharing his knowledge, experience and wisdom has helped you in some way. I like how Savio emphasized the importance of integrating mainstream and holistic health care practices because there can be a place for both of them in anyone's recovery. I also liked how he spoke about the role of self-compassion and emotional health in someone's recovery. They are both vitally important.

[01:03:04] And I would also add, and I think he did as well, but support is huge. I feel like people going through an illness or a caregiver of someone going through an illness should definitely seek out support or some sort of support group to help them get through it and just know that they're not alone. And Savio also spoke about having a vision and goals beyond the illness and to keep those in front of you at all times. I hope you enjoyed today's show. I would love to hear from you.

[01:03:32] As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend. And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly

[01:04:02] at thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.