Ep. 82 Breaking Barriers and Building Confidence with Shruti Rustagi

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories.

[00:00:17] Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift.

[00:00:30] Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess.

[00:00:37] Today I have the pleasure of having Shruti Rustagi on the show.

[00:00:41] In this episode, Shruti shares her personal journey from battling self-doubt to achieving success, detailing the strategies she used to build confidence, leveraging mentors, and overcoming mental barriers using psychology and neuroscience.

[00:00:56] The conversation delves into practical techniques for managing self-doubt, handling criticism, and balancing the dynamics between introverts and extroverts in the workplace.

[00:01:07] The cultural differences in professional settings is also explored, and Shruti offers her insights into career transitions and building self-accountability.

[00:01:16] This episode is packed with actionable advice for anyone looking to overcome internal obstacles and achieve their career goals.

[00:01:24] With 18 years experience as a global leader across Fortune 100 companies, most recently as a CFO for a $4 billion business unit within Amazon, and as a certified executive coach, Shruti supports people in growing their leadership effectiveness, building resilience, and maximizing life.

[00:01:44] In over 870 hours of coaching, she has supported executives, leaders, actors, and entrepreneurs all around the world in compounding their leadership through mindset shifts.

[00:01:55] She has an MBA from IIM Lucknow, India, is a professional certified coach through the International Coach Federation, and a certified positive intelligence coach.

[00:02:35] Hi, I'm Michelle Sims, your host.

[00:02:37] One of the beauty in the mess called Breaking Barriers and Building Confidence with Shruti Rastagi.

[00:02:43] So without further ado, let's dive right into today's conversation.

[00:02:47] Hi, Shruti. Welcome to the beauty in the mess.

[00:02:50] I'm so glad to have you with me today.

[00:02:52] Thanks for having me, Michelle.

[00:02:53] Excited to be here.

[00:02:55] Me too.

[00:02:56] I wanted to talk to you for a minute.

[00:02:58] Now, I know that you became the CFO of a $4 billion Amazon unit.

[00:03:05] And I also know that you're a mentor and a leadership coach, among many other things.

[00:03:10] But I know you started out with a lot of self-doubt and a lot of not feeling enough, which I think is like the pandemic of the world right now.

[00:03:22] I think everybody's suffering from not feeling enough.

[00:03:24] So I was just wondering if you could tell us some of that journey from where you started to where you're at today.

[00:03:30] For sure.

[00:03:31] To whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

[00:03:33] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[00:03:35] So the journey, honestly, of the self-doubt started at a certain point in my career.

[00:03:41] I was almost 10 years into my career when we decided to move from India to Dubai.

[00:03:47] Okay.

[00:03:48] And I was leaving my 10-year work experience behind joining my husband and my family to Dubai.

[00:03:57] And I decided to start afresh.

[00:04:00] Now, super excited.

[00:04:01] When I land there, the job market isn't as good.

[00:04:05] And as they say, I think Martin Seligman had made this point that we tend to make everything personal and pervasive and permanent.

[00:04:15] So I started thinking, oh, I'm not getting roles because I'm not good enough.

[00:04:21] And things like those.

[00:04:22] So, you know, one thing led to the other and I was pretty down bottom in how I was thinking and my confidence levels.

[00:04:30] Then comes a longer role with Amazon, which was obviously more of something you would expect for a person with three to four years of experience to join.

[00:04:41] But at the point I had been looking for a job and it was a tough market and I decided, okay, let me just give it a go.

[00:04:48] I had heard this amazing quote by a Google co-founder saying, when you're given a seat on a rocket ship, you don't ask which one.

[00:04:58] And so I decided, yeah, let's go for it.

[00:05:01] Now, the funny part is when I joined Amazon at that point, it was a new company.

[00:05:06] I'd never worked in e-commerce before.

[00:05:08] It was also a new region.

[00:05:11] I'd never worked in Middle East, North Africa before.

[00:05:13] And the third challenge was Amazon had a unique culture.

[00:05:18] So it is a very unique culture and you have to get used to that.

[00:05:22] You have to get used to the industry, getting used to the work, the geography, the geopolitical aspect, everything.

[00:05:29] And it was a lot.

[00:05:31] And I did not give myself enough space.

[00:05:33] My confidence, which was already not at a very high level, started dropping even further.

[00:05:39] And I was in a space, I was like, every time I made a little mistake, I was like, oh gosh, I'm completely dumb.

[00:05:46] I can't even get one thing right.

[00:05:48] So, you know, it's that constant self-doubt, which I was going through, even though I was doing pretty well at that point.

[00:05:56] And then I would not walk you guys through the whole journey after that, but that was 2018, June.

[00:06:04] And then 2021, August, I joined as Canada Consumables CFO within Amazon.

[00:06:11] So I moved countries and I, so that was the journey for me from that self-doubt and mess,

[00:06:18] as you probably would want to call it, to really figuring out, no, that's not the way to deal with it.

[00:06:26] And centering myself, building confidence bit by bit, and actually building mechanisms in place for myself

[00:06:36] to get that trust and confidence back.

[00:06:40] Leaning on to mentors, supporters, leaning on to my family as needed.

[00:06:45] And then using the tools that I was building at the time for coaching others on myself.

[00:06:52] So that was how that journey looked.

[00:06:55] You were beginning to become a coach at that time also?

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:07:00] So my coaching journey, so I had started my coaching journey around 2018.

[00:07:06] I became a certified coach around the same time.

[00:07:10] And then I decided to actually apply all of that because it's very easy for us to distinguish ourselves

[00:07:18] and be a different person when we are coaching others, but then not see how exactly that's happening with us too.

[00:07:25] Right.

[00:07:26] So I started applying all of those learnings with myself.

[00:07:29] And actually that work with myself gave way to a lot of body of work that I developed over time on confidence

[00:07:38] and how we use psychology and neuroscience to overcome some of these mental barriers we have.

[00:07:45] So that was the journey.

[00:07:46] So do you mind telling us like a few of those mechanisms that you use to build your confidence or to overcome that not enough?

[00:07:56] 100 percent, 100 percent, more than happy to.

[00:07:58] The first thing I started off with, which is not my own, was morning pages.

[00:08:05] So morning pages is a practice that you basically every morning you wake up,

[00:08:11] you take a piece of paper or notepad or anything, and you start writing everything that comes to your mind.

[00:08:17] Every thought that crosses, you just keep writing it.

[00:08:20] So the first few times it's, oh, I don't know what to write.

[00:08:23] But the guidance is that you even write down this feeling that I don't know what to write.

[00:08:30] And as you do it, the negativity, the self-doubt, a lot of that starts coming down to paper.

[00:08:37] And when you see that reflected, when you see that coming down on paper,

[00:08:42] you start realizing how ridiculous some of that is.

[00:08:46] You start realizing that you're not giving yourself credit for a lot of what you're doing,

[00:08:51] but you're just holding yourself accountable for the few things that you're not doing that well.

[00:08:57] And so that was my very first thing which I did,

[00:09:00] which helped me at least gain a stable ground from being super negative.

[00:09:05] The next thing which I did is every time I basically created my kudos repository,

[00:09:12] if you would call it.

[00:09:13] Every time somebody sent me a message or a mail or somebody said to me,

[00:09:18] oh, this is great work.

[00:09:19] Thank you.

[00:09:20] Love the analysis.

[00:09:21] Thank you for putting this model together.

[00:09:24] Thanks for your thinking on it.

[00:09:26] And so on and so forth.

[00:09:27] I actually started collating it in one place.

[00:09:29] Because what that does is every time you're feeling low, you actually go back and check.

[00:09:34] And you know that there's a lot of good work you've done.

[00:09:36] Just because right now you're not in your best space doesn't mean you're not good enough.

[00:09:41] And so that was the second thing I started doing.

[00:09:44] The third thing, and which is a technique I developed,

[00:09:46] both for me and eventually my clients who I've used with a lot,

[00:09:51] is three mistakes a day.

[00:09:52] I conditioned my mind to say that every day I'm allowed to make three mistakes.

[00:09:58] Till I make three mistakes, it's okay.

[00:10:00] I'm not going to berate myself and tell myself, oh gosh, I'm an idiot.

[00:10:03] So three mistakes is what I allow myself every single day.

[00:10:06] And what that does is it kind of neutralizes things.

[00:10:10] It tells you that's all right.

[00:10:11] It's just one of those three mistakes.

[00:10:13] And so on.

[00:10:15] So it conditions your mind to be human and not start expecting unnecessary superhuman perfection

[00:10:23] out of ourselves.

[00:10:25] So those would be the three that come to my mind.

[00:10:27] Of course, there were many other things like journaling.

[00:10:31] So outside of morning pages, I started journaling way more regularly.

[00:10:35] The other thing which I did was what many people would call meditation in a way.

[00:10:41] But this is a technique which I learned as my training as a PQ coach.

[00:10:47] It's a positive intelligence coach.

[00:10:48] And I call them mini meditations.

[00:10:51] Basically, try to divert your mind.

[00:10:52] The moment you start to get anxious, you start to get negative or really worked up about a situation.

[00:10:59] You just divert your mind through some of the techniques in that.

[00:11:04] And so I started doing a little bit of those.

[00:11:06] And those small steps drove me to where I am today.

[00:11:11] That's pretty awesome.

[00:11:12] I hadn't heard of culminating all of your little wins is what I would call them or the compliments

[00:11:18] you get in the one spot and then going back and reviewing them.

[00:11:22] I like that.

[00:11:23] And then also saying we can have three mistakes a day or whatever limit you put on yourself

[00:11:29] without getting upset with yourself.

[00:11:31] Because that's the first thing we seem to do is beat ourselves up.

[00:11:35] We're never, never good enough.

[00:11:37] So what do you do to make sure that, and is it these same things, but what do you do to make

[00:11:44] sure that you don't kind of drift back into the old mindsets?

[00:11:48] Because it's so easy to go back to our old habits.

[00:11:52] And when we've done this for decades to ourselves, how do you not slip back?

[00:11:57] Or do you, or is it just that you have awareness now that you catch yourself?

[00:12:02] It's a wonderful question, Michelle, because it's both.

[00:12:05] So one, yes, I think over time you do develop the muscle of awareness.

[00:12:09] So I do catch myself.

[00:12:11] But at the same time, it is a slippery slope always.

[00:12:16] Like I would not say that today I'm completely like this person who never berates herself.

[00:12:22] Right.

[00:12:23] It keeps slipping back in sometimes.

[00:12:25] The only difference is I would also say that be conscious of how it happens now versus before.

[00:12:32] So as I grew and as I'm growing into more senior roles, the way it would come to me will be more

[00:12:39] like, oh, do I deserve to be at the table?

[00:12:42] I just joined a role.

[00:12:44] I don't know enough.

[00:12:45] Should I even be in this meeting?

[00:12:47] Should I even be opening my mouth to ask a question?

[00:12:49] Will it be a dumb question?

[00:12:50] Those are the sort of self-doubts now that come versus when I was more junior, let's say six years ago,

[00:12:58] things would be different.

[00:12:59] What I have done now is I've started to identify, and that's where my journaling super helps me,

[00:13:06] started to identify what are those thoughts or inner critics that are coming to me now

[00:13:11] in this phase of my career or any phase that I'm in.

[00:13:16] And then I start addressing them.

[00:13:17] So for instance, now I will be like, instead of thinking of why do I deserve to be here,

[00:13:24] I start thinking, okay, what value can I add so that it's worth for me to be here?

[00:13:31] What can I take away from the discussions I'm listening so I learn and grow?

[00:13:36] And so it's almost like stop being defensive and letting the imposter syndrome impact you,

[00:13:44] but rather start thinking about what's your unique perspective that you're bringing to the table

[00:13:49] that the others are not thinking of.

[00:13:51] Because we all have experiences in life and career, which are sometimes very unique to us.

[00:13:58] For instance, I have background in consulting, corporate strategy, mergers and acquisitions,

[00:14:03] and business finance and corporate finance.

[00:14:06] So the breadth and depth of experience I can bring in and into my insights

[00:14:11] is very different from somebody who's done accounting their whole life can bring in,

[00:14:17] and vice versa.

[00:14:18] And so I've started applying some of those filters a lot more

[00:14:23] and conditioning my mind to think differently a lot more in any given situation.

[00:14:30] Does that answer the question?

[00:14:31] Yeah, I think so.

[00:14:33] I mean, if I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like you almost,

[00:14:36] when that imposter syndrome rears its head, you kind of just reframe it.

[00:14:41] Like, how can I look at this differently and perhaps a more positive light?

[00:14:47] And I wanted to ask, you mentioned being a positive intelligence coach.

[00:14:51] Is that correct?

[00:14:52] What exactly is that for those of us that aren't familiar?

[00:14:57] Oh, sure.

[00:14:57] So Dr. Shirzad Shumain, he's a Stanford professor.

[00:15:01] He had actually developed this whole, there's a book called PQ, I think, which he had written as well.

[00:15:07] He had brought up this whole concept of saboteurs.

[00:15:10] So these are your inner critics that impact you.

[00:15:13] And some of those negative thoughts, internal negative thoughts,

[00:15:18] impact us at different points in time.

[00:15:20] And the concept that it is, it's based completely in neuroscience and psychology.

[00:15:26] And it says that through small neuroscientific practices of these mini meditations, let's say,

[00:15:34] which he calls PQ reps, you can actually change your perspective.

[00:15:39] So for instance, if you're really worked up about a presentation that you're going to go to,

[00:15:45] and you're thinking, oh my God, I'm going to just blow up because I'm not good at public speaking,

[00:15:50] and so on and so forth.

[00:15:51] One of the examples could be that you just, let's say, rub your two fingers,

[00:15:55] the index finger and the thumb together,

[00:15:57] and just focus all your attention on the ridges of your index finger, the thumb.

[00:16:03] So these small things which divert your mind from wherever you're worked up about to anything else.

[00:16:12] And as you keep doing this, creates a neural pathway in your head that every time you go in a situation

[00:16:20] which is going to get you anxious or worked up,

[00:16:24] your mind automatically knows that there's another neural pathway it can take,

[00:16:28] and you tend to relax.

[00:16:29] And as you relax, you start thinking about things from a very different perspective,

[00:16:35] get more creative about how to address the situation at hand.

[00:16:38] And I think, and this whole, I mean, I'm just telling you a small piece of a tactical thing that you could do,

[00:16:45] but that's the whole body of work that he has developed that's called positive intelligence.

[00:16:50] And I really like, because the principles were totally seeped in neuroscience and psychology,

[00:16:55] and I, so I got certified in that because I personally applied it on myself first,

[00:17:01] and then I quite liked it and saw it work for me.

[00:17:04] And so.

[00:17:05] Yeah, I like the concept of that, because it's, to me, it's kind of like it's the ruminating

[00:17:11] on those things like, oh, I'm not good at this, I'm not going to do well.

[00:17:15] And you're diverting so that you stop ruminating.

[00:17:19] And because that's what causes the anxiety, I think.

[00:17:21] You keep repeating it over and over, and you work yourself into a frenzy over it.

[00:17:26] So I like that idea for sure.

[00:17:28] And I have a background in psychology as well.

[00:17:31] So it's fascinating to me.

[00:17:33] Yeah, pretty neat.

[00:17:34] Oh, fantastic.

[00:17:35] Yeah.

[00:17:35] So what can we do to like, be more accountable to ourselves for these changes that we're trying

[00:17:42] to make?

[00:17:43] How do we establish accountability in a way with yourself?

[00:17:48] I mean, if you don't have somebody else that you can depend on to kind of keep you.

[00:17:54] I would say a three step process, Michelle, if you will.

[00:17:59] The first is about just start being more conscious about yourself.

[00:18:04] What are those situations which get you worked up or which trigger the thoughts of not enoughness

[00:18:11] or trigger the thoughts of negativity of any sort?

[00:18:15] And it could show up differently in all of us.

[00:18:17] So in my head, that's the very first step.

[00:18:20] And then comes the accountability part.

[00:18:23] So I would say that the second step to this, to actually building that accountability,

[00:18:29] is find an anchor.

[00:18:31] And when I say find an anchor, it's almost like get a quote or a thing which represents something

[00:18:41] to you, which is positive and strengthening.

[00:18:45] So I think I'm borrowing a little bit from both what Brené Brown had said once and what

[00:18:51] I have learned as part of my own coach training.

[00:18:54] So Brené Brown had said that whenever she was in that spot, she would repeat this one

[00:19:00] line to herself.

[00:19:01] And so that almost became a mantra that you repeat to yourself to come out of that situation.

[00:19:06] And a similar impact could be achieved using a thing like a ring or a pencil or like a pen

[00:19:15] or anything which you put your mind to and say, this is what it represents for me.

[00:19:20] And so every time I look at it, this should tell me that what I'm thinking is not right.

[00:19:29] But that's the conditioning that we have to do.

[00:19:32] We have to think about something and consciously believe that that's the situation.

[00:19:37] That would be my second step of finding an anchor in any way we like.

[00:19:41] And the third is we say that in finance that we don't just set up systems.

[00:19:47] We measure how well it's working.

[00:19:49] And third for me is to build that accountability.

[00:19:52] You have to measure how it's working.

[00:19:54] So either you measure it by journaling or you measure it by just reflecting, okay, this

[00:20:00] week, two times, three times something came up.

[00:20:03] I was able to recognize this has come up and I was able to put myself in a better space.

[00:20:10] The first time you do it, you might realize that six times something came up.

[00:20:14] You were able to identify it two times, but then you were not able to address it even once.

[00:20:19] That is great.

[00:20:20] You identified it two times.

[00:20:22] As you keep doing it, it becomes better.

[00:20:26] So I would say that when you have to do self-accountability, you have to like identify these three sort of steps that help you build that mechanism and keep you in the right spot.

[00:20:38] That's awesome.

[00:20:39] That's awesome.

[00:20:39] Thank you.

[00:20:40] Yeah, definitely a good path.

[00:20:42] I wanted to ask you like with all of your, and you have vast experience as a coach.

[00:20:48] So with all your coaching experience, what do you think are the top things that really hold people back from achieving what they want to achieve?

[00:20:56] Is it that imposter syndrome?

[00:20:58] Is it confidence at which they're kind of tied together?

[00:21:01] I would say top three.

[00:21:04] I have, oddly enough, I have top two.

[00:21:07] Okay.

[00:21:08] But I can think of a third one too.

[00:21:10] So for me, I would say the first one that I've seen across the board is fear.

[00:21:15] And the fear comes in many, many different shapes.

[00:21:19] Fear of leaving the known and stepping into the unknown.

[00:21:24] Fear of losing something we already have.

[00:21:28] Fear of missing out.

[00:21:29] Fear of what will happen if we open that topic.

[00:21:34] If you start talking about something in a relationship, like it varies.

[00:21:38] And what situation you're in, it impacts.

[00:21:42] So for me, the very first thing that stops us from being our best selves is fear because we just don't know what lies at the other end of the line.

[00:21:51] The second thing that stops us are beliefs.

[00:21:55] And when I say beliefs, these are things we don't even realize are there in our mental, I wouldn't want to call it value system, but almost like things we have held to be true as we have grown up and as we have seen certain situations.

[00:22:12] And so I'll give you a very small example that may or may not resonate with a lot of people right now.

[00:22:19] But while growing up, and I grew up in India, very traditional society, while growing up, divorce was a big taboo.

[00:22:27] So you would see people who grew up with the belief that when a marriage is, when people have got married, they have to continue with it no matter how it was working out.

[00:22:38] And so that's what I mean by saying that we carry those beliefs with us without ever checking, is that really working for me?

[00:22:47] Is that working truly for me?

[00:22:50] Or is it a societal norm that I've just imposed on myself?

[00:22:54] And so that was just an example because it's the most obvious one that comes whenever we think of society in India.

[00:23:03] But it's very similar to what happens in the workplace.

[00:23:07] So many women, so many women I mentor, they are really not comfortable putting their voice out, asking for what they want, stepping on other people's toes.

[00:23:19] And I'm not saying it's good to step on other people's toes, but the others do to them all the time.

[00:23:24] Sometimes you need to raise your voice and say things.

[00:23:28] Women are not supposed to do this is passé, it's old.

[00:23:32] We still keep those beliefs with us.

[00:23:34] And those beliefs we don't even know exist.

[00:23:37] So that's why in my head is fear of what's going to happen if I do this.

[00:23:42] And two, the beliefs.

[00:23:44] If I have to come to a third, I think the third thing that holds people back is thinking that I'm the only one who's facing this.

[00:23:56] They don't talk about it.

[00:23:58] They don't share it with their friends, their families.

[00:24:01] They don't go ahead, find a coach or somebody who can actually support them with it.

[00:24:06] Or even talk about it to their peers, their mentors, because they sometimes, a lot of people I've worked with, go on believing that, oh, this is so specific to me.

[00:24:16] People won't understand what I'm going through.

[00:24:18] But that's not true.

[00:24:20] So I would just say that those three is what I've come across are the biggest reasons that hold us back.

[00:24:27] Thank you.

[00:24:27] I'm curious if you feel like the fear of failure is stronger or the fear of success, because I can see where people could be just as afraid of succeeding.

[00:24:38] Because then how do I maintain it?

[00:24:40] What's next after that?

[00:24:42] That could be almost as fearful as failing.

[00:24:45] That's a brilliant, brilliant point, Michelle.

[00:24:48] That's true.

[00:24:49] And I have to say that, yes, there is both.

[00:24:54] There is that fear of, and then what?

[00:24:58] Will I have to keep maintaining it?

[00:25:00] Will I have to keep coming first because now I'm the numero uno?

[00:25:06] Right.

[00:25:07] And I have to then keep coming first for the world, not for myself anymore.

[00:25:10] Right.

[00:25:11] I could see being fearful of that and always having to top yourself even.

[00:25:16] Like you've got to do something even bigger and better the next time.

[00:25:18] And that could be almost worse than just failing and forgetting.

[00:25:22] And I think that it's interesting.

[00:25:25] And I see that happen.

[00:25:28] So it's funny.

[00:25:29] The first time I'd heard this is when my mom had said this to me.

[00:25:33] I was really young, I think in sixth grade or something.

[00:25:36] And she had said the first time people want to win something for themselves.

[00:25:41] But every subsequent time they want to win it because they're expected to.

[00:25:46] Wow.

[00:25:46] And I was like, oh my gosh, that is so true.

[00:25:49] And that time, obviously, I did not fully understand the materiality.

[00:25:54] But as I grew, I realized that sometimes we do things because we're expected to do it.

[00:26:00] So what you're saying is so interesting because it actually manifests in both.

[00:26:06] Both as a fear and both as our want to just keep doing it because it's expected out of us.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:14] So yeah, it's a great point you made.

[00:26:18] And I'm wondering also, like you were talking about women having a hard time of expressing

[00:26:23] themselves in the workplace.

[00:26:24] But I know from my experience, I work in a very male dominated arena and women, you're

[00:26:33] told and shown that women are not valued.

[00:26:35] That's my opinion.

[00:26:37] And so you are less likely to speak up because you already feel like you've been placed in

[00:26:43] a lower subcategory.

[00:26:45] So I wonder if that's some of it possibly is maybe they're feeling what I feel or maybe

[00:26:51] that's a belief I've established and I carry it forward.

[00:26:54] I don't know.

[00:26:55] No, I would say, Michelle, that's actually not just a belief.

[00:26:59] That is something that we see a lot in workplaces.

[00:27:02] I would also be very honest and say I have seen both.

[00:27:08] But yes, I do see there's an inherent, I don't know, bias or the way people deal with women

[00:27:17] like you're saying that does happen.

[00:27:19] I don't think it's just our beliefs.

[00:27:22] And at the same time, that's exactly where I feel that that's why women need to speak

[00:27:27] up a lot more because of that subcategory that we are sometimes just attributed to.

[00:27:34] And so I almost think it like this.

[00:27:38] The onus of justice doesn't always just lie on the other party.

[00:27:44] Yes, we need to work on systemically not making women inferior, not believing that women are

[00:27:52] inferior in certain areas of work.

[00:27:54] We need to work on that.

[00:27:56] But at the same time, we need to keep pushing forward as women so that we can break those

[00:28:03] stereotypes too.

[00:28:05] So that's how I think about it, that it isn't just that exists for sure.

[00:28:10] And so we need to work towards crashing that bias as much as possible also.

[00:28:16] Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic.

[00:28:18] But one thing I've noticed is that the few women that kind of exceed to the top, they

[00:28:24] get conditioned as well, where they value the male experience or the male opinion or whatever

[00:28:31] more than the women too.

[00:28:32] And I thought, wow, how interesting is that?

[00:28:34] Because you're a female and now you're doing, I guess, what you've been taught.

[00:28:39] But it's a very interesting dynamic.

[00:28:41] It's not a pleasant one, but it's an interesting one.

[00:28:44] I also think, yeah, probably yes.

[00:28:49] And I also think that as women will start speaking and voicing more of their opinions,

[00:28:56] and this is in general for anybody who does that, they will start becoming more articulate

[00:29:01] as they voice.

[00:29:02] As they become more articulate, people will be more than willing to listen to them.

[00:29:07] And so it's like this vicious cycle almost, Michelle, that when we don't do enough of

[00:29:12] it, the message that goes on the top is, oh, men are the ones who have the ideas and they

[00:29:17] are the ones who are driving everything and so on and so forth.

[00:29:20] And so that's why I think what you're saying is probably true.

[00:29:24] There probably does develop a bit of conditioning.

[00:29:26] But then I also think that it has to be solved from grounds up.

[00:29:31] We need to give women more power to speak out and women need to take more initiative to

[00:29:38] present themselves.

[00:29:40] Both.

[00:29:40] We need to create those situations such that they feel empowered to do this and they need

[00:29:47] to believe in themselves to actually go forth and do it.

[00:29:51] So something crossed my mind.

[00:29:53] I think Margaret Thatcher had said, if you want something said, ask a man.

[00:29:58] If you want something done, ask a woman.

[00:30:00] And it couldn't be far from true.

[00:30:04] We are the ants and bees who are working in the background all the time.

[00:30:09] Right.

[00:30:10] High time we come forth and speak about our worth and our work.

[00:30:14] Yeah, I think you're 100% correct on that.

[00:30:17] We have to create those situations.

[00:30:19] But as women, we also have to start kind of forcing ourselves to put ourselves out there

[00:30:25] a little bit, a little bit at a time, kind of building it up.

[00:30:29] I do have another question for you, Shruti.

[00:30:31] I'm wondering if from your experience, like is 30 the new 50 for workers also?

[00:30:40] Or do you think there's still age discrimination?

[00:30:43] Or I mean, are people being more valued for their experience and their knowledge?

[00:30:48] Or how do you see that?

[00:30:50] I'm interested from your perspective.

[00:30:52] Michelle, I've seen that dynamic from totally two different standpoints.

[00:30:57] Oh, wow.

[00:30:59] Okay.

[00:31:00] I've been on the side where I was the youngest general manager in an organization.

[00:31:06] I've been on the side where I was the oldest manager in an organization.

[00:31:12] So if you were the oldest, that had to be a very young.

[00:31:17] It is.

[00:31:18] It was.

[00:31:19] It is.

[00:31:20] It still is.

[00:31:20] Amazon is a fairly young organization that one of the teams that I was part of, I felt

[00:31:24] like, oh my gosh.

[00:31:25] I mean, of course, at the same level, I was the oldest.

[00:31:28] My manager was, of course, older than me and so on.

[00:31:31] But yeah, in Amazon, come to think of it, I've also worked for managers who were younger

[00:31:35] than me.

[00:31:36] The rest of the team was almost younger than me, barring one or two people.

[00:31:41] And so I have actually seen that dynamic play out differently, probably because there's

[00:31:47] just one organization.

[00:31:48] I've worked in the US in the last six years, and I've seen that dynamic play out very

[00:31:53] differently in other parts of the world as well.

[00:31:55] So Middle East and India, where I have bulk of my experience.

[00:31:58] I think it's a very cultural thing, Michelle.

[00:32:01] So when you say 30s, the new 50s, that and the work experience thing are actually, I want

[00:32:07] to segregate it for just a bit.

[00:32:09] 30s, the new 50s.

[00:32:10] Okay.

[00:32:10] I think yes.

[00:32:12] Unfortunately, but yes.

[00:32:14] Because as we start reaching to our 40s, how many conversations, and this is all from

[00:32:20] my mostly from my personal friends and everyone, less so from the career coaching aspect of

[00:32:29] things.

[00:32:31] But there's a lot of talk about, okay, we want to relax.

[00:32:35] We want to retire.

[00:32:36] Do something of our own.

[00:32:38] Enough with all of that.

[00:32:39] So from that standpoint, it is kind of becoming 30s, the new 50s.

[00:32:45] From the other standpoint that probably you're alluding to more is that about the work experience.

[00:32:52] 30s is becoming the new 50s purely because look at how many young companies are coming

[00:32:59] up.

[00:33:00] There has been a seed change in how we have thought about corporations over the last 20,

[00:33:06] 30 years.

[00:33:07] Earlier, we used to have these corporations which existed for hundreds to 100 years.

[00:33:12] And now the bulk of the industry, as it shifts to more technology and services, these are these

[00:33:19] whole host of younger, newer startups coming up and which automatically make 30s, the new 50s.

[00:33:30] And because the technology is changing so rapidly, the experience starts counting a little differently

[00:33:39] in different spaces.

[00:33:40] The subject matter expertise that used to hold true earlier, no matter is very true, is no

[00:33:47] longer very true for some of the functional spaces.

[00:33:50] If you take technology, if you take IT, if you take services, if you take telecommunications,

[00:33:58] in all of those, the changes are very rapid that if I am 20 years experienced in some technology,

[00:34:05] it doesn't matter because now it's changing very rapidly.

[00:34:09] Okay.

[00:34:09] At the same time, there's the other part of the organizations, which is your functions, which

[00:34:14] have been forever there, HR, somewhat accounting, treasury, people management, those skills hone

[00:34:23] as you stay longer in a role.

[00:34:27] Like people management, well, it's difficult for somebody who's managing people for the first

[00:34:33] time to be excellent at it.

[00:34:34] Of course, there are always outliers versus somebody who's been managing people and who's

[00:34:40] been managers of managers for like years and decades.

[00:34:43] So there is a difference which is becoming very apparent in different parts of the same

[00:34:49] organization where experience matters of just the number of years, but where experience

[00:34:55] specific technologies and how up to date you've been with certain things on technical aspect

[00:35:01] has started mattering more.

[00:35:03] And so that's where you see the, I don't want to call it dichotomy, but the twin behavior

[00:35:08] of thirties being those seasoned professionals sitting in the C-suites, while on the other

[00:35:13] side, you still see people who've been veterans actually sitting in the C-suites.

[00:35:20] And that's what we are seeing today in the industry.

[00:35:22] Yeah, I can see that.

[00:35:23] Sorry for the long winded answer.

[00:35:26] No, no, I was good.

[00:35:28] I can totally see what you're saying.

[00:35:30] And so in some facets like IT and the tech world, that kid coming right out of college

[00:35:37] has all the newest, latest information and training.

[00:35:41] And so I can totally see that.

[00:35:43] And now with AI and all that, it's the whole new world coming again.

[00:35:48] Exactly.

[00:35:49] And like they're saying, data is the new oil.

[00:35:52] So that tells you a lot about the, how industry dynamics is expected to change as well.

[00:35:58] So I think those are the things to watch out for.

[00:36:01] So as far as your experience with your clients, are you seeing a lot of people start to transition

[00:36:08] as far as they're, they were in one field for 20 or 30 years, and now they're transitioning

[00:36:15] into a completely different arena.

[00:36:17] I'm starting to see a lot of people go into coaching perhaps, or go into different realms

[00:36:22] that are totally opposite of what they've been doing for the last 20 or 30 years.

[00:36:29] Do you see that as well?

[00:36:30] I 100% see that as well.

[00:36:33] Yes.

[00:36:33] And in more than one areas, Michelle, one, like you said, coaching, mentoring, leadership

[00:36:40] training, that's one area that I definitely see emerging.

[00:36:44] The other thing that I also see is people have started upskilling themselves, if you

[00:36:49] will.

[00:36:49] So there's a lot more interest on, like, I know somebody who was, who came from like a

[00:36:55] financial management background, completely accounting and everything.

[00:36:59] He went ahead and gotten a course done at MIT on analytics.

[00:37:04] And then he was doing something on program management.

[00:37:06] So like, I'm seeing some of those trends happen a lot because people also want to upskill

[00:37:12] themselves as to what is needed in the organizations and what can make them more employable, if you

[00:37:18] will.

[00:37:19] So I'm seeing both of those trends happen a lot.

[00:37:23] So like picking up new skills to kind of set yourself apart from everybody else in a way.

[00:37:28] Yeah.

[00:37:29] Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:30] And then obviously changing the course completely of your career or of how you have envisaged your

[00:37:36] life.

[00:37:37] That definitely is, that was what we were talking about thirties, the new fifties on the

[00:37:43] previous note, which is the let's retire, let's do something else.

[00:37:47] That I think is becoming way more prevalent than it was like 30 years ago.

[00:37:52] Yeah.

[00:37:52] I'm saying that a lot.

[00:37:53] They're not ready age wise or financially or all of the above to retire and sit at home

[00:38:00] or go camping or go fishing, but they're kind of done with what they did before.

[00:38:05] I mean, I don't know how to say it.

[00:38:07] They're grateful for what they've experienced, but they're ready for something completely

[00:38:11] different.

[00:38:11] It's like they want to challenge themselves in a way or just new experiences perhaps.

[00:38:17] So.

[00:38:17] Yeah.

[00:38:17] I think YOLO, you only live once is just becoming a little more relevant.

[00:38:23] And I think it's so true.

[00:38:25] So I'm wondering if you have any tips for people as they're going through, you know,

[00:38:31] we all get criticism and hopefully it's constructive criticism, but how do people become resilient

[00:38:37] to take that for what it is and learn from it, but not be thrown into the, oh, I'm not

[00:38:44] enough back into that cycle from the criticism.

[00:38:47] They'll have to do a bit of mindset change, Michelle.

[00:38:51] And I think a brain is a muscle too, right?

[00:38:55] Right.

[00:38:56] And so the more we do work with it in certain ways, the more it will serve us on criticism.

[00:39:04] This is what I follow and we all get constructive feedback every now and then.

[00:39:08] Right.

[00:39:09] Right.

[00:39:09] So I have these two questions.

[00:39:11] I ask myself always when I get the criticism or feedback, what do I want to take and work

[00:39:19] with?

[00:39:19] What do I want to ignore?

[00:39:22] And I just do that.

[00:39:23] That's it.

[00:39:24] So every time you think of something you're taking and working with, that's basically to

[00:39:30] say that this is how I'm improving myself.

[00:39:33] That's a growth.

[00:39:34] What I'm ignoring is something which I think is coming from either someone's bias or today

[00:39:41] I'm not ready to work with it.

[00:39:42] It could be both.

[00:39:44] And that's fine too.

[00:39:46] Because if that is truly something that needs to improve in me, that feedback is going to

[00:39:52] come to me again.

[00:39:53] And maybe then I will be more ready to receive it.

[00:39:58] That's a good way to look at it for sure.

[00:40:00] So you kind of analyze what you feel their intent really was and will it benefit you to

[00:40:07] work on it?

[00:40:08] Or like you said, maybe you're not ready to work on it.

[00:40:12] You're aware of it, but you're not ready, which could definitely happen for sure.

[00:40:16] I'm also curious, like your input on introverts versus extroverts.

[00:40:22] Do you like I have a friend that her business is set up around helping introverted people

[00:40:28] in the business world.

[00:40:30] Do you see a difference in how they succeed or does it matter?

[00:40:35] Yes, it matters.

[00:40:37] A hundred percent.

[00:40:38] Anybody who's read the seminal work of Susan Cain, the book, I think Quiet, would sort of

[00:40:46] agree with that.

[00:40:47] So I think it matters.

[00:40:48] And I think of that more as a leader, Michelle, than just a person myself.

[00:40:55] So as a leader, I need to be super aware of how my team is.

[00:41:00] Who of them is an introvert and an extrovert?

[00:41:02] Because they bring in very unique skill sets to everything.

[00:41:09] Introverts do tend to think a lot in their minds about certain situations.

[00:41:16] And so when they say something, they have really, truly thought about it pretty well.

[00:41:23] That is, and I'm coming completely from a professional element here and as a leader or

[00:41:28] as a manager, right?

[00:41:29] Right.

[00:41:30] So extroverts, on the other hand, are more, extroverts have their own skill set.

[00:41:35] They will be able to latch on to a lot of office grapevine that's happening sometimes,

[00:41:40] which is important for you to know because that might determine the direction you need

[00:41:44] to take on certain projects and work and resource building, et cetera, or be ready for what's

[00:41:50] going to come next, right?

[00:41:51] So I would say that as a leader, you need to truly understand the capabilities and leverage

[00:42:02] that for the organization to succeed.

[00:42:05] For the people themselves, they need to do something very similar.

[00:42:09] They need to make it clear to the people they work with that this is how they work best.

[00:42:15] For instance, they need to let people know that they need time to think things through in their

[00:42:21] mind.

[00:42:22] Don't just ask them for like, okay, here's the documentary.

[00:42:25] Read it and give me your thoughts.

[00:42:27] No, they'll probably process it a lot longer.

[00:42:30] Right.

[00:42:30] The other thing is that introverts, by definition, will possibly always try to, many a times,

[00:42:36] try to avoid networking situations, and which is very common in corporate life.

[00:42:43] And so that's when I think being self-aware that they will try to do that.

[00:42:50] They should set certain, I would almost say metrics on it to say, okay, in a full year,

[00:42:56] I'm going to attend at least three networking dinners.

[00:42:59] I will speak to at least two new people I haven't spoken to before.

[00:43:04] They need to work on some of that.

[00:43:06] And for the extroverts, because I think it flows with the nature.

[00:43:11] Usually you will see the extroverts are the people who are high energy.

[00:43:15] They are high on, yes, let's jump into it right now and get things going.

[00:43:20] Versus let's take 10 minutes.

[00:43:22] Let's take a couple of days.

[00:43:23] Think this through.

[00:43:24] And then.

[00:43:25] So I've seen those dynamics play in a lot of people I have worked or people who have managed

[00:43:32] or mentored.

[00:43:34] And I think so.

[00:43:35] The kind of goals that they both need to set for themselves to succeed are slightly different.

[00:43:42] But it's absolutely true that what we see of those people in the organizational situations

[00:43:50] is different.

[00:43:52] I'll also say one more thing.

[00:43:54] I don't want to make it a generic statement, Michelle, but extroverts tend to come across

[00:43:59] as more not successful, but as more commanding or leaders versus introverts in most situations.

[00:44:10] And that's because they tend to speak their minds.

[00:44:12] They tend to take more risks.

[00:44:15] And hence, as they take more risks, they also increase their chances of winning in a way.

[00:44:22] Right?

[00:44:23] So people who are willing to just throw in their hat in any situation, they will obviously

[00:44:29] end up working on a much wider variety of things, learn a lot more from it, and hence

[00:44:33] also increasing their chance of success.

[00:44:37] So these two things sort of go hand in hand.

[00:44:40] And hence, both of these personalities need to identify what they need more of in their

[00:44:46] lives.

[00:44:47] And they should work accordingly for it.

[00:44:50] Does that answer your question?

[00:44:51] Because I know I've entered two different directions.

[00:44:55] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:56] It's kind of fascinating because I think we're all aware of introverts and extroverts, but

[00:45:01] we don't think about all the dynamics that it affects, even in the work area, right?

[00:45:07] Like you said, you have the leader versus, I don't want to say follower, but at least like

[00:45:13] a quiet type of person that doesn't exert themselves as much.

[00:45:17] And so I could see, you know, if you're an introvert, maybe setting specific goals, like

[00:45:22] you said, not just networking, but even making yourself take on a project that's maybe out

[00:45:27] of your comfort zone a little bit or different things to try to, I don't think a true introvert's

[00:45:32] going to ever fully be an extrovert, but I think they could push themselves a little more

[00:45:38] in that direction for sure.

[00:45:39] But it was fascinating to hear from your standpoint, how they function differently.

[00:45:44] It definitely makes you think, which am I?

[00:45:47] What would I do?

[00:45:49] And fun fact, Michelle, I think 67% of the people are ambiverts.

[00:45:56] So we are not full extroverts or introverts.

[00:45:59] And we do that based on certain situations, which was really eye-opening for me.

[00:46:04] I was like, okay, when you said that, who are we?

[00:46:07] So yeah, I think that's an interesting statistic I found.

[00:46:10] That's very true as well.

[00:46:12] Yes, the situation can definitely affect how we act and also how well we know the people

[00:46:18] in the situation.

[00:46:20] Absolutely.

[00:46:21] So yeah, definitely.

[00:46:22] Well, thank you.

[00:46:23] That was very interesting.

[00:46:24] I want to be mindful of your time.

[00:46:27] And so I would like to give you a little time, if you would, to tell us about your coaching

[00:46:31] programs, if you would, and what people can expect from a coaching, if they've never hired

[00:46:37] a coach.

[00:46:38] Sure, Michelle.

[00:46:39] I think what I bring in my coaching is a twin approach.

[00:46:45] So one is working with what they can expect from the coaching sessions is truly getting

[00:46:51] to know themselves and somebody willing to ask them the tough questions that will make

[00:46:56] them think.

[00:46:57] And that will make them take the potentially good decisions as they move forward.

[00:47:03] The other thing that they can also get is because of the whole plethora of experience I have,

[00:47:08] from my professional side, I combine my coaching with also mentoring, helping them navigate difficult

[00:47:16] situations of multiple ways, like with difficult people, difficult conversations, transitions, all

[00:47:22] of that, and help them understand what's the best route they could potentially take while they themselves

[00:47:28] decide for it.

[00:47:30] So combine the two, what I have worked with people and how people have most found my coaching

[00:47:37] sessions helpful is by breaking through their internal barriers, their mindsets, the beliefs,

[00:47:44] and the fears.

[00:47:45] And then getting also some advice on what could be a potentially good next step in their careers.

[00:47:54] How can they tactically think about doing things that will propel them forward and things like

[00:48:00] those.

[00:48:01] So that is what people can expect.

[00:48:03] I have focused my practice now on completely one-on-one coaching.

[00:48:08] So I am fairly selective about all the clients that I take on and people can find me through

[00:48:15] my LinkedIn as well as they could just drop me an email and my website.

[00:48:21] So as you can mention later.

[00:48:25] Yeah, I'll definitely put all that information in the show notes so that they can find you.

[00:48:30] I know that you coach people in multiple countries.

[00:48:33] So how does that work?

[00:48:35] I mean, I know culture plays a part, but in essence, are people just people and we're all

[00:48:40] kind of facing the same struggles or is that cultural difference much, much larger than what I'm

[00:48:48] thinking?

[00:48:49] The cultural difference does exist.

[00:48:51] Right, for sure.

[00:48:53] The benefit of having worked in multiple countries and having worked with a lot of different culture

[00:49:00] people is that I'm able to appreciate those cultural nuances where they're coming from.

[00:49:06] Like the Asian cultures are similar somewhat in how people in the upbringing of the people,

[00:49:13] in the situations they go through, in the belief systems they have.

[00:49:17] Similarly, I have worked with a lot of Europeans and there are those certain things that are

[00:49:24] very specific and typical, I would say, to the culture there and what they hold important.

[00:49:30] And of course, I've worked in the US now for some time and I've coached a lot in the US too.

[00:49:36] And that tells me that how the belief systems and how people behave very differently, communicate

[00:49:44] very differently, expect very differently from the other cultures where I have coached.

[00:49:49] So for instance, Asian and American communications are very different.

[00:49:55] And anybody who's done probably something on transactional analysis added with a layer of cultural elements will totally understand that.

[00:50:05] So yeah, like you said, there are cultural nuances, which I'm able to appreciate a lot more because

[00:50:11] I come from a culture and I've worked in multiple others.

[00:50:16] So right.

[00:50:17] Yeah, that's fascinating.

[00:50:19] Well, I thank you for joining us today and I appreciate all of your knowledge.

[00:50:23] And it's been fascinating to hear your different take on all of these things.

[00:50:28] So thank you for your wisdom and for sharing it with us.

[00:50:32] Thank you so much for having me, Michelle.

[00:50:34] It was so fun chatting with you.

[00:50:36] It has been fun.

[00:50:37] Thank you.

[00:50:38] As we wrap up today's episode, I hope Shruti sharing her knowledge, experience and wisdom has helped you in some way.

[00:50:44] I think one of the things that Shruti gave us was a pathway to build self-accountability by becoming self-aware,

[00:50:51] finding an anchor and then, of course, finding a way to measure that you're truly building it,

[00:50:55] such as journaling or just self-reflection.

[00:50:58] And how about allowing yourself three mistakes a day before you're allowed to sort of beat up on yourself?

[00:51:04] This forces you to show yourself some grace, I feel.

[00:51:08] And it also takes the pressure off because we're all going to make mistakes as part of life.

[00:51:13] And the entire discussion on introverts and extroverts in the workplace, that was absolutely fascinating to me.

[00:51:19] And there's so much in this episode.

[00:51:21] Of course, I can't summarize all of it.

[00:51:23] But what about you?

[00:51:24] What stood out to you?

[00:51:26] I hope you enjoyed today's show.

[00:51:28] I would love to hear from you.

[00:51:29] As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person.

[00:51:33] And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend.

[00:51:39] Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess.

[00:51:42] If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend.

[00:51:45] And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review this podcast on your favorite pod player.

[00:51:50] If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyandthemess.com.

[00:52:01] Thanks for listening.