Ep. 77 Navigating Divorce & Family Law with Empathy with Elizabeth Douglas, ESQ

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:33] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. For this episode I'm thrilled to welcome Elizabeth Douglas, ESQ, to the show. Elizabeth is the CEO and founder of Douglas Family Law, PLLC, and she is an award-winning divorce and family law attorney in New York. She has helped her clients through challenges like divorces, custody, and surrogacy battles and believes that everyone can start over and live a fulfilling life no matter what you go through.

[00:01:02] Elizabeth has been featured in Forbes, Fox, and recently on CNBC. She is also an international keynote speaker. She strives for excellence while being a beacon to uplift her staff, community, and clients.

[00:01:15] Hi, I'm Michelle Sims, your host. I'm just a regular person who, along with my family, have had our share of messes that we too have had to overcome. Along the way, I got curious as to how others get through their messes and even triumph over them. Maybe there's a better way, a faster way. Maybe we can accelerate our journeys by learning from someone else.

[00:01:35] That started my pursuit. I think we can all learn from each other through the sharing of our experiences, lessons, and knowledge. So join me for episode 77 of The Beauty in the Mess called Navigating Divorce and Family Law with Empathy with Elizabeth Douglas.

[00:01:52] So without further ado, let's dive right into today's conversation.

[00:01:56] Hi, Elizabeth. Welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. I'm so happy to have you with me today.

[00:02:01] Hi, Michelle. It's great to be here.

[00:02:03] Thank you. Now, I know you're an award-winning divorce attorney and a speaker, among many other things.

[00:02:09] But before we kind of dive into those things, I was wondering if you could tell us some of your backstory.

[00:02:14] Like, what's some of the journey that you've had that's led you to where you're at today?

[00:02:19] Well, it sounds really cliche, but I have wanted to be a lawyer for my entire life.

[00:02:24] My Barbie Dolls used to play court.

[00:02:28] So what I think what's led me to divorce and family law specifically is really wanting to have a connection with people.

[00:02:34] I started my career the first seven and a half years out of law school, litigating and working to basically keep companies rich as opposed to directly connecting with people.

[00:02:44] And while I did like trial and I liked litigating in that corporate type of feel, I really missed having a one-on-one relationship with clients to help them sort of create or envision what their future would be like.

[00:02:55] So that led me to learn more about divorce and family law.

[00:03:00] I took every CLE that was out there, advanced training.

[00:03:03] I shadowed numerous matrimonial attorneys.

[00:03:05] I shadowed some celebrity divorce lawyers to understand those techniques of working with high net worth individuals or people with specialty jobs who would have a different type of discretion required for their matters.

[00:03:15] And I just really liked it.

[00:03:17] With my job, what I love the most is that I can connect with people when their most important things are at stake.

[00:03:23] So their relationship, their children, their finances, their actual vision for the future.

[00:03:28] And I've always wanted to be in a role where I could be an advocate or I could be friends, confidants, just someone to really help people if they felt stuck or they wanted to pivot, take the next step all while using my law degree.

[00:03:42] So that's kind of what got me here.

[00:03:44] That's pretty awesome.

[00:03:45] Now, I imagine along with that, and I don't know, so you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I would guess that you see a lot of people at their worst.

[00:03:54] And whether that's your client or the opposing spouse, I can't imagine some of the situations you probably find yourself in.

[00:04:00] So I was just curious, has that jaded your own journey a little bit or how does that affect you?

[00:04:06] It's a blessing and a curse.

[00:04:08] Because, yeah, the reality is that the majority of clients initially, not through the whole journey, but initially, are at their worst because the idea that they had or the vision they had for their future has changed.

[00:04:19] Right.

[00:04:20] It shattered.

[00:04:21] Yeah.

[00:04:21] Whether that's by choice and it still hurts or it's not.

[00:04:25] So it's difficult.

[00:04:26] And then now you've got the things, again, most important to us, our families, our relationship, our finances.

[00:04:31] So it's a difficult time to be in.

[00:04:34] In terms of being jaded, I am an eternal optimist and also a hopeless romantic.

[00:04:40] But for sure, there are lots of things that we see sometimes that can make it difficult or make it be a reminder to take off the lens.

[00:04:49] Work is work.

[00:04:50] And to compartmentalize personal because it's such a personal business and every area, you know, could cross over into your own personal life, myself, my team, my staff.

[00:05:00] But I wouldn't say jaded.

[00:05:01] I'd say there's moments sometimes where it's a little tough, but jaded, not anymore.

[00:05:06] When I first transitioned from litigation, commercial litigation to divorce and family, I think I was a little bit more jaded at times.

[00:05:12] Okay.

[00:05:13] From what I've learned about you, you seem like a very caring person, like more than I would ever expect from an attorney.

[00:05:21] I mean, you seem to care about the long-term outcome of your client or anybody, even if they're not your client.

[00:05:27] So how did you kind of develop that mindset or you want to help?

[00:05:32] First, thank you.

[00:05:33] It's in my nature.

[00:05:34] I am pretty empathetic.

[00:05:35] And I very much care about people thriving.

[00:05:41] I don't really know exactly when or how it started.

[00:05:43] I'm the youngest of three.

[00:05:45] Maybe it came from being the baby or needing to survive as being the baby.

[00:05:48] I'm not quite sure.

[00:05:50] I just really, if I can do something within my power to help someone get the next step ahead or to be a cheerleader or an advocate, or if I have some knowledge I can share that will help them, I'm typically willing to do that.

[00:06:03] So it's just natural.

[00:06:05] I would disagree a little bit that at least the outlook on attorneys, I mean, you don't see your kind of personality that often because you're very uplifting and caring.

[00:06:15] And I guess we'd say, I think of attorneys more business-like, you know, let's get it done and get it over with.

[00:06:22] And they're concerned about the case and then see us.

[00:06:26] I think you give a lot more extra than that.

[00:06:28] So I commend you on that for sure.

[00:06:31] Oh, well, thank you for that.

[00:06:32] I mean, when I have to go to trial and litigate, I'm definitely all about the business.

[00:06:38] Oh, yeah, sure.

[00:06:39] I'm sure that the clients are doing good too.

[00:06:42] So with divorce, I am sure, and I haven't been through one, and I hope to never be through one, but I'm assuming that they go through a grieving process, your client and their spouse.

[00:06:53] And so how do you help them get through that grieving process?

[00:06:58] They absolutely do go through a grieving process because it is like a death.

[00:07:01] It's the death of the vision that you had.

[00:07:03] Right.

[00:07:04] Death of that life.

[00:07:05] So it's multifaceted.

[00:07:07] Our practice approach is always to help people thrive after divorce, not just to get by.

[00:07:11] And it definitely takes a village.

[00:07:14] We encourage all of our clients first to have a community.

[00:07:17] The first part of that is having a mental health professional to help them through the journey, not because we think they're crazy, but because they're crazy not to.

[00:07:25] Because divorce is such a change and a pivot.

[00:07:27] Even if you're the one who initiated it, getting that support through the process is very, very important.

[00:07:33] And even in the most amicable of divorces, it is a significant change.

[00:07:37] There's still stress involved.

[00:07:38] So having that neutral third party outlet who you can be free with, who is non-biased, who's professionally trained, who is not going to be in the rumor mill or part of the flying monkeys if you're dealing with a narcissist or whatnot.

[00:07:50] Having that person on your side is important.

[00:07:51] And having an outlet where you know you can go and speak regularly.

[00:07:54] We encourage all of our clients to consider their mind, body, soul, and their health.

[00:07:58] So just like when you're on an airplane, they say when that oxygen mask comes on, you put that on first and then you assist the children and the elderly.

[00:08:06] Going through a divorce, you have to make sure you're taking care of your body.

[00:08:09] You're eating.

[00:08:10] You're getting enough sleep.

[00:08:11] You're taking care of you.

[00:08:11] You're nourishing yourself because it is definitely a marathon and not a sprint.

[00:08:15] Right.

[00:08:16] And sometimes it's easy to lose sight of that when your life is in upheaval, when you're concerned about your kids, when you're concerned about your finances, when you're fighting your ex in court.

[00:08:26] So we really try to help our clients be mindful of those things.

[00:08:30] We send care packages.

[00:08:31] We keep in touch.

[00:08:32] We just, you know, reading resources, making sure people have a value add and that they have some resources that they can use when they feel appropriate.

[00:08:40] And they know that they're not alone through the process is very, very important.

[00:08:43] Oh, I think that's absolutely important to them.

[00:08:47] So what's the most challenging case that you've come across personally challenging?

[00:08:54] That's a hard.

[00:08:55] It's a hard question.

[00:08:55] Sorry.

[00:08:57] It's okay.

[00:08:57] I'm going to think about that.

[00:08:59] There's been different challenges.

[00:09:00] I'd say most recently, a very challenging case involves a client whom I've known for quite some time who was accused of very bad behavior to his child.

[00:09:13] I'll leave it at that.

[00:09:14] They were all false allegations, but very damaging psychologically, emotionally.

[00:09:20] And working with him to triumph over that was very rewarding.

[00:09:24] But it was also tough because it's hard to disassociate personal feelings from when you think about an impact that such allegations could have on a child.

[00:09:35] And then the impact it has on the child's parent and the potential relationship.

[00:09:39] So that was a tough one.

[00:09:41] Another one that comes to mind is probably earlier on when I started.

[00:09:44] And I was at the time representing the client who had some challenges with substance abuse.

[00:09:52] And at that time, I had never, ever worked with a client who was dealing with that type of addiction.

[00:09:58] And I just couldn't understand the decisions this client was making.

[00:10:01] And it was tough.

[00:10:02] Emotion was tough physically.

[00:10:03] I felt judgmental.

[00:10:04] And I actually went and I took coaching with, for about six months with a substance abuse professional counselor to help me understand the cycle of abuse and why that happens in the cycle of addiction.

[00:10:15] So I could better represent the person, but so I could show more empathy and understand the challenges and also be able to work out what would be more of a reasonable type of graduated access schedule as that client healed.

[00:10:26] Wow.

[00:10:26] That was tough.

[00:10:28] Labor intensive, emotionally intensive, et cetera.

[00:10:30] But I'm so glad that that experience happened and I'm glad that that client thrived.

[00:10:33] Yeah.

[00:10:34] It's amazing that you did that too.

[00:10:36] I mean, what a benefit to your client.

[00:10:38] So.

[00:10:39] Thank you.

[00:10:39] It's pretty awesome.

[00:10:40] Awesome.

[00:10:40] So what's the most rewarding case or one of the most rewarding cases that you've gotten to deal with?

[00:10:46] There are so many.

[00:10:47] I feel rewarded when I help the client reach their objective or when my team is able to get the client in a better place where they can thrive and that happily ever after starts.

[00:10:56] Another most recently rewarding case was getting custody for an amazing father.

[00:11:01] He had his rights stripped and it was completely inappropriate and wrong and not by any type of court order.

[00:11:08] And restoring that access and having him rebuild the relationship with his daughter and seeing them thrive and seeing how thrilled he was, the smile on his face.

[00:11:15] That was amazing.

[00:11:17] Wow.

[00:11:18] That would be.

[00:11:19] So do you feel like cases are getting more and more complicated as time goes on?

[00:11:24] Because the traditional family dynamic has changed in so many ways.

[00:11:28] And then you also, I mean, it's not only just adoption anymore, but it's surrogacy and all kinds of things.

[00:11:34] I think cases are getting better.

[00:11:37] Okay.

[00:11:38] Are complicated more, but not complicated in a negative way because the modern family is always evolving.

[00:11:43] And the laws in most of the states just aren't moving as fast.

[00:11:49] So the challenge or I guess the area of opportunity is really to be able to advocate for people to be able to create their modern families the way that they see fit and have the laws help them get the same rights as everybody else.

[00:12:01] So I enjoy that.

[00:12:03] So I enjoy that.

[00:12:03] And I really like being a part of making law.

[00:12:06] I love being a part of writing appeals and arguing law and just really helping to advance a client's interests.

[00:12:13] That's wonderful.

[00:12:14] That's wonderful.

[00:12:14] So what do you, and I don't know if this is a fair question or not, and you don't have to answer if it's not.

[00:12:20] But from your experience, what do you feel like possibly the number one thing that leads to divorce might be?

[00:12:27] I mean, is it just a difference in expectations and people don't sit down and hash that out before they get married?

[00:12:32] I think it's a combination, but I think that every single issue that leads to divorce stems from an issue with communication.

[00:12:40] It's always communication based because whether it is a financial issue, there was some mishap or failure to communicate effectively, you know, how people deal with finances, what they think about money, what the relationship is, what their expectations are going to be.

[00:12:55] If it has to do with cheating, there is some breakdown in communication that led one or both spouses to feel a certain way or take a certain way or check out on the marriage or to be in a situation that they might not have been had communication been different.

[00:13:08] If it's an issue with parenting style, again, communication, it always stems from communication.

[00:13:14] And that results from either lack of not enough different behaviors.

[00:13:19] Sometimes there's narcissism involved, but always coming back to communication issues.

[00:13:23] I think lead people into the divorce lawyer's office.

[00:13:27] Wow.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:29] So one thing I love that you talk about eat, hike, love and life after divorce, creating the life you want.

[00:13:36] So I think it's awesome that you help people not only get through the immediate challenge, but beyond that.

[00:13:43] So could you talk about that for a little bit?

[00:13:45] Yeah, for sure.

[00:13:46] I think all of us, it's human nature.

[00:13:48] When you're right in the middle of something, that's where you're focused.

[00:13:51] You're focused in that moment.

[00:13:52] And it takes some stepping back to recognize that most of the things that we go through in the moment are temporary and there's going to be an ending period of some sort.

[00:14:03] So being able to sit down with a client after they've retained and when we're developing what their goals are, we're talking about how they're seeing the future,

[00:14:10] taking that time to help them envision it and then define what their sticking points are and what they would like to have are or what it's like if we take just a minute to think about.

[00:14:21] We know that this relationship is ending, but have you thought about what life could be like after that?

[00:14:26] A lot of times people pause and they think no.

[00:14:29] And when they take a few minutes to think about it, they start feeling a little bit clearer and getting a little bit less stuck if they are stuck in that moment and moving forward.

[00:14:37] And I think reminding people that no matter what the circumstance, big life changes are always an opportunity to pivot.

[00:14:44] And a pivot's a wonderful thing, whether you want it to or not, because there's another door that always opens.

[00:14:49] And usually that other door is better for you in some respect.

[00:14:52] So I enjoy having a hand in that.

[00:14:55] And then when we get a chance to bring in the legal aspect to it, of course, it's even more powerful.

[00:14:59] And at the very, very end, seeing someone who now, even if they're not ready to take all the next steps yet, knowing that they have that chance to create something new is very, very rewarding.

[00:15:11] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:12] So how do you help these people like start to heal?

[00:15:17] Because the one thing I was thinking of when you were talking is with the big pivots also comes a lot of fear sometimes.

[00:15:23] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:24] So how do they get past that fear or how do you help coach them past that fear?

[00:15:29] It's stages and it's incremental.

[00:15:31] I mean, the first thing we say to all of our clients is give yourself grace because any big shift in fear, of course, there's going to be time.

[00:15:39] You've got to be kind to yourself, give yourself grace and peace and gratitude for where you are.

[00:15:43] And then it's going through the process again, whether it's making sure that you're taking care of yourself emotionally, physically, mentally, seeing a therapist, working out, spending time with friends, pampering yourself a little bit, get a manicure, go work out.

[00:15:57] These aren't things that are supposed to be insignificant.

[00:16:00] They're small things that we can each do to help ourselves along with the journey and then taking the time.

[00:16:06] But always remembering that a pivot point, yes, it's a change and change can be very scary.

[00:16:11] You know, most of us are out of change, especially big life changes.

[00:16:16] Right.

[00:16:17] But the reality is that life keeps on moving.

[00:16:20] So we have the choice now to accept the challenge, to move forward.

[00:16:24] And it might not be in an instance, but it's definitely going to happen.

[00:16:27] And we have the capability to control a large part about what the next steps look like.

[00:16:33] So how long do you tell people to allow?

[00:16:37] And I know it's different for every single person, so there's no set time.

[00:16:40] But like how long should someone be thinking that it's going to take them to heal from a divorce?

[00:16:47] I don't ever give people a set amount of time.

[00:16:49] It's not possible.

[00:16:50] It's kind of like when you lose someone to death.

[00:16:53] Right.

[00:16:53] You know, grief comes in stages and stages.

[00:16:56] So instead we prepare them for that.

[00:16:58] That, you know, some days you might feel great.

[00:17:00] Other days you might think you're moved along and then you break down time when you see your wedding picture.

[00:17:04] You know, it's stage having grace and it's knowing yourself.

[00:17:09] The most important thing is to keep putting one step forward.

[00:17:12] That's usually what we say.

[00:17:14] And then surrounding yourself with positive people and real people who, when you have your bad days,

[00:17:19] they're not going to judge you.

[00:17:20] They're going to support you.

[00:17:21] When you feel like you need some extra support, having people to reach out to or whatever.

[00:17:26] We're all different.

[00:17:27] So there's different coping mechanisms that work.

[00:17:29] Right.

[00:17:30] But I think what is the same is that everyone has a chance to influence their own mindset.

[00:17:34] And that's very powerful.

[00:17:36] And a lot of that is about who you surround yourself with.

[00:17:38] What books are you reading?

[00:17:39] What resources do you have?

[00:17:40] What tools do you have?

[00:17:41] So we also like to point clients in the direction of a lot of good resources, reading, podcast, audible, whatever it is,

[00:17:48] just so that they feel like when they're ready, there's something, there's someone, there's a network of people they can call.

[00:17:53] There are activities they can do.

[00:17:55] We host events in our office where if they feel like coming, wonderful.

[00:17:58] Come to one of our sip and speaks, have a glass of wine, meet other people, talk, hear a topic.

[00:18:02] You know, you just never know.

[00:18:04] You never know what you put out there that might really help someone.

[00:18:08] Right.

[00:18:08] So I think being open for them to take advantage of it is the most important part.

[00:18:13] Very true.

[00:18:13] And I was thinking as you were speaking about, you know, going to get your nails done or doing these different things that a lot of us don't do that.

[00:18:21] Whether you're going through a divorce or not, we don't take the time to take care of ourselves.

[00:18:25] And that may be some of the problem also is that we never give back to ourselves.

[00:18:30] I think it's a large part of the problem.

[00:18:31] A lot of us feel guilty.

[00:18:32] A lot of us feel too busy, whatnot.

[00:18:34] So when you're going through a divorce or family law challenge, I think it's giving yourself permission to be a little bit fancy.

[00:18:40] Boil yourself a little bit if you have to.

[00:18:42] Because you need to be.

[00:18:43] A lot of times people are inherently kinder to others than they are to themselves.

[00:18:48] And during this type of challenge, it's not helpful to you if you're that way.

[00:18:53] You've got to learn a little bit more self-love and self-grace even more so.

[00:18:57] Because a lot of us are so hard on ourselves that when you're going through a breakup, marriage, significant relationship, financial, whatever it is, you've got to give yourself some grace to adapt to the transition and kind of figure things out.

[00:19:10] Yeah, I have a loved one going through one right now.

[00:19:13] And it's very painful to even watch.

[00:19:16] And so you can't even imagine what that person's going through because it's hard even just watching what you see of what they're going through.

[00:19:24] It really is because like you said earlier, it can be scary.

[00:19:28] Change is inevitably scary.

[00:19:29] Even good change is scary.

[00:19:30] Right.

[00:19:31] And I think a lot of times, at least on the initial onset, when that person wasn't the one that chose it, they feel like their whole world has fallen apart.

[00:19:42] And they don't, they're not seeing the light on the other side yet.

[00:19:45] And so trying to help them see that there is life after this, there is someone else waiting, there is whatever you hope for yourself.

[00:19:53] Sometimes it's hard to get them to see that.

[00:19:56] For sure.

[00:19:56] It's funny.

[00:19:57] A lot of times clients will come in and they'll say, oh, I would never get married again.

[00:20:01] There's no way.

[00:20:01] And they're so adamant about it.

[00:20:03] And then somewhere down the line, our phone rings and they're calling us to do a prenup.

[00:20:07] Because the time has passed that they found someone new and they're ready to receive love.

[00:20:12] And a lot of times it is a love that maybe will last forever.

[00:20:18] Maybe it's more appropriate because they've taken the time to do the work they've pivoted.

[00:20:21] And now they've really been purposeful and created the next steps.

[00:20:25] I thought you were going to say that you were getting an invitation to the next wedding.

[00:20:29] You know what I have?

[00:20:31] That's the funniest thing.

[00:20:32] I've been invited to several weddings of clients whose divorces I've done, several prenups.

[00:20:36] And most recently, most excitingly, I have been invited to a next chapter celebrating divorce party.

[00:20:42] And I think it's such a cool idea.

[00:20:44] It's an amazing client.

[00:20:45] She's fantastic.

[00:20:46] And she really has the right ethic.

[00:20:48] She had a very tough divorce.

[00:20:50] I was happy that myself and my team could support her through it.

[00:20:53] And it was hard.

[00:20:54] It definitely wasn't something where she thought it was easy.

[00:20:56] But now she feels wonderful.

[00:21:00] Wow.

[00:21:00] Like she has this great opportunity ahead of her.

[00:21:02] She's going to take the next steps.

[00:21:06] So you brought up prenups.

[00:21:08] How important do you think those are?

[00:21:10] Oh, super.

[00:21:10] Is it super important just if you have a lot of assets or is it super important for everyone?

[00:21:15] No.

[00:21:16] The first thing is you can never ask a divorce attorney if prenups are important.

[00:21:19] Okay.

[00:21:23] Prenups are extremely important whether you have a lot of assets or you don't.

[00:21:28] Even if you're starting out your career.

[00:21:30] Let's say you're just graduating college and getting married.

[00:21:31] They're important because the first thing they allow you to do is to get financially naked with your partner.

[00:21:37] So many of us are so concerned about getting physically naked, right?

[00:21:40] We forget about the financial part.

[00:21:42] Very true.

[00:21:44] The financially part allows you to work on that communication early on because you're being open about what you have, your assets, your liabilities, your debts, how you think about spending, what you envision the future to be.

[00:21:58] You're having these tough conversations ahead of time so you can kind of get on the same page.

[00:22:03] And I really think that there's nothing sexier than saying, hey, babe, I love you so much.

[00:22:07] I want to protect you in the event that this doesn't go as we plan while we're still happy.

[00:22:12] Or in the event that there's death, disability, dismemberment, you name it, a lot of the horrible, undesirable things that we don't want to happen.

[00:22:19] You're making these plans now while you're happy and you're in love in your life.

[00:22:22] It's kind of like when you go on a first date, that's usually the best your partner is going to look, at least the best effort, right?

[00:22:31] I never thought of it that way, but you're probably right.

[00:22:34] Oh, and when you're making the prenup, you're still happy and you have stars in your eyes.

[00:22:37] If you wait until it's time for divorce, this is when people want to like, you know, kill each other.

[00:22:42] Revenge.

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:43] Yes.

[00:22:45] So it's a good planning tool.

[00:22:47] It's a good open communication tool.

[00:22:49] Great opening discussions.

[00:22:50] And the thing is, it's not about planning for divorce because they say when you fail to plan, that's when you're planning to fail.

[00:22:57] So prenups are actually planning to win.

[00:22:59] Right.

[00:22:59] Because if you never use it, amazing.

[00:23:01] And if you use it, now you've made decisions based on a rational mind and thought, not based on vengeance, not based upon emotion only.

[00:23:10] You're based upon fact because you're exchanging net worth statements or financial disclosure, affidavits, depending where you are.

[00:23:16] With your assets, with your talking about the future, you're coming to this understanding how much debt someone has, understanding what their thought process is ahead of time.

[00:23:25] And a lot of times we don't have those conversations.

[00:23:28] You know, we go out to dinner, someone pays the bill.

[00:23:31] You don't wonder how that bill gets paid if it's with the credit card, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:23:34] Right.

[00:23:35] And sometimes, you know, listening to experiences of others, like the spouse might change during the marriage where they're spending money that you may not know about or you don't feel like you can stop them from doing what they're doing.

[00:23:51] But then when it comes to a divorce, you're legally liable for half of that, right?

[00:23:56] In some instances, depending upon the state, yeah.

[00:23:59] Okay.

[00:23:59] And depending upon whether it's separate or marital property, whatnot.

[00:24:03] But to your point with the spending, that's one of the big things, like you were asking me earlier, finances come into play.

[00:24:09] Because sometimes they haven't had a conversation.

[00:24:12] Right.

[00:24:12] And you have two people who are stars in their eyes and they get home being married and they realize that one person is a paycheck to paycheck person and the other person is a squirrel away every dime.

[00:24:23] That inevitably leads to a breakdown.

[00:24:26] You don't think that sometimes they balance each other out?

[00:24:29] You think it just normally comes to a head?

[00:24:31] I think they balance each other out when they're able to communicate about it.

[00:24:34] Sure.

[00:24:35] Right.

[00:24:36] Most of the time when there has been no prenup talk or there's been no financial talk or none of the tough conversations talk, I think it comes to a head more than not because people start tiptoeing.

[00:24:47] Then they start making concessions that they're really not comfortable with, but they don't want to make the other person uncomfortable until it blows up.

[00:24:53] I mean, I'm sure there are a few couples that are able to navigate around that on their own, but they probably went to therapy or something happened.

[00:24:59] But if the dialogue is able to be open, then yes, you can meet a middle ground, of course.

[00:25:04] But a prenup is a really good start to at least having the conversation.

[00:25:10] Right.

[00:25:11] And I would see someone that's already gone through a divorce being brave enough to broach that subject with a new person.

[00:25:17] But the person that's not been through a divorce would probably be less likely to talk about a prenup.

[00:25:24] You know what I'm saying?

[00:25:25] Because A, they haven't been burned yet and B, it just it seems like you're being mean or I don't know.

[00:25:33] You'd be surprised.

[00:25:34] OK.

[00:25:35] Now, it's not really so much about because it's true.

[00:25:38] There was always a stigma around prenups.

[00:25:39] You're either being mean or you're planning to ice your partner out or planning for divorce.

[00:25:44] Now, it's their use as a planning tool a lot of the times.

[00:25:47] You see prenups often more times with people who have adult children or they've been married before and they want to make sure that those children from a prior marriage are accounted for or protected.

[00:25:58] You see them with people who have businesses, assets, people going to college or planning the future together.

[00:26:05] A lot of times when there's family wealth, you also see them, too, where people want to make sure that what was theirs before they met their partner or what might be family money or inherited is spoken for and protected in a more aggressive way.

[00:26:17] So I don't think it's always negative or bad.

[00:26:20] I think more people are warming up to them.

[00:26:22] And then, of course, you've got a lot of these celebrity prenups that we see, which are usually mandatory, or even the ones that are quirky, that people are pre-upping for things like how often they should have Botox or having cheating clauses.

[00:26:34] You know, people who marry, I'm trying to be politically correct, people who might be more inclined to cheat, let's say, or more in the limelight.

[00:26:41] Those people often will put anti-cheating clauses in there to try to deter, you know, their partners from cheating.

[00:26:47] Oh, wow.

[00:26:48] You can add them to a prenup.

[00:26:49] So what is a post-nup?

[00:26:51] A post-nup is a prenup after you've been married.

[00:26:54] So basically...

[00:26:55] Okay, so you're still married, but yeah.

[00:26:57] Yeah, after you said I do and then now for whatever reason you didn't know about it, you couldn't do it.

[00:27:02] Or a lot of times you'll see post-nup, most common scenario is when it is a couple who's been married before,

[00:27:08] they have older children that they didn't provide for, children from a past marriage.

[00:27:12] Sometimes if they didn't do it before marriage and there's a special needs child involved, they might do that.

[00:27:17] Or when there's a significant transfer of land or inheritance that they want to specifically speak to.

[00:27:23] So it's a good thing, but of course, it's harder to get someone to sign a post-nup than it is to a prenup.

[00:27:30] Right.

[00:27:32] Yeah, I can't imagine.

[00:27:33] So I did want to ask too, and this might be an oddball question, but I know it's come up in my own family,

[00:27:40] but I'm surprised that there aren't really laws, at least in my state, for pets.

[00:27:46] Like how you divide the custody of a pet, so to speak.

[00:27:49] Because a lot of us feel like the pets are family more, you know, in a way.

[00:27:55] But yet there's no protection, really.

[00:27:58] No, there's protection.

[00:27:59] We do pet custody agreements often.

[00:28:02] Oh, really?

[00:28:03] Because my family member was told there's no such thing.

[00:28:06] Well, in New York State, we definitely do them.

[00:28:09] Okay.

[00:28:10] And they're co-parenting arrangements often in times and place for pets.

[00:28:14] And you would be surprised because you're right.

[00:28:16] A lot of times our animals are like family.

[00:28:19] Right.

[00:28:19] And they're very important to people, just like children.

[00:28:23] Absolutely.

[00:28:24] Absolutely.

[00:28:24] Now, given there is no state-ordered pet support, like you could get child support.

[00:28:30] But a sharing arrangement, yes, when the pet is treated like property, then it's a question, is it's marital property, separate property?

[00:28:37] What's that split going to look like for sure?

[00:28:39] Oh, wow.

[00:28:40] Yeah, because at least in my state, my family member was told that, you know, you guys work out a sharing agreement on your own.

[00:28:48] Or else when you come to court, they'll just say this person gets the pet and the other one doesn't.

[00:28:52] And that's the end of the story.

[00:28:53] And I was like, what?

[00:28:54] It's kind of crazy.

[00:28:56] We've negotiated some interesting splits.

[00:28:58] And you have to be very careful, especially how you advise clients because it is so emotional, the relationship with their pets.

[00:29:05] Right.

[00:29:06] That we're very mindful of that.

[00:29:08] And we're doing those types of negotiations for who gets the dog or who gets the cat.

[00:29:13] So if there's no law in your state that speaks to it, can you still kind of write it in the agreement or not?

[00:29:19] Yeah.

[00:29:20] You can legally contract for anything that is not illegal.

[00:29:24] So it is not illegal to say, you know, every other weekend I have fluffy and then, you know, the opposite weekend.

[00:29:32] Okay.

[00:29:33] And it's legally binding that way?

[00:29:35] I mean, that they have to share the pet.

[00:29:36] Okay.

[00:29:37] Yes.

[00:29:37] If you're signed and sealed and notarized in the proper form, yes.

[00:29:41] Wow.

[00:29:42] Okay.

[00:29:42] Well, that's good to know for sure.

[00:29:45] So what do you think about, I know you talk to people about fostering self-love after divorce.

[00:29:52] And how do you recommend that they do that?

[00:29:55] First, by giving themselves grace.

[00:29:57] Second, by really taking a really good look about what they need.

[00:30:02] It's oftentimes hard for us to take an inner look and think about what do we really need?

[00:30:08] Because most of us are so used to just surviving or just going on.

[00:30:12] You know how you can kind of get through the work week like clockwork.

[00:30:14] It's one day, suddenly you're like showered and dressed and you know you changed your outfit and days change, but you go through it like wrote.

[00:30:21] It's harder to sit down and really take a moment to be still and to be quiet, to think about what you need.

[00:30:27] And I think because what we need is ever changing a lot of times, we're resistant to do that.

[00:30:32] But I really encourage our clients, friends, families, peers to think about what do you need in this moment?

[00:30:37] It might change, but for right now, if you could give yourself and be your best advocate for yourself, what you need to get through this moment, through this day, through the next day, what is that?

[00:30:46] Figure out what that is and then move from there.

[00:30:48] And then if you are a parent or a caretaker or other, then what level of functioning and needs you need to be at?

[00:30:57] Then you can really shine to help who you need to take care of and then move from that.

[00:31:01] I think that that's very, very important.

[00:31:03] Oh, I think it absolutely is.

[00:31:05] So what else would you want to share with people today that we haven't already talked about?

[00:31:11] What would you want to make sure that they heard?

[00:31:13] I want to make sure that they hear that this is a season and it's not to make light of the significance of marriage and the significance of change, but everything that has a beginning has an end.

[00:31:23] And we have a choice, a conscious choice to really take a path in what do the next steps look like?

[00:31:29] And I think that they shouldn't be afraid to do that.

[00:31:31] That circumstances change.

[00:31:33] Yes, that's true.

[00:31:34] And there's always a grieving process, but it is short-sighted not to think about what the future could hold and how much better or brighter the future might be.

[00:31:44] So I know you're an award-winning public speaker.

[00:31:47] Who do you speak to?

[00:31:48] I mean, what is your audience?

[00:31:49] Is it people that are going to get married?

[00:31:52] Is it people that have been divorced or is it a mix of everybody?

[00:31:55] I speak to diverse audiences.

[00:31:57] Okay.

[00:31:58] When we're talking about prenups, I'm speaking to those people with stars in their eyes ready to get married.

[00:32:02] Okay.

[00:32:02] Sometimes we're speaking at battle events.

[00:32:04] During the context of divorce, I speak to a lot of people who are divorcing in high-conflict divorce and talking about coping strategies and litigation strategies when that's necessary and trial strategies.

[00:32:14] I speak to a lot of people in groups about custody and how you can survive and navigate a complex custody battle.

[00:32:21] What can you do?

[00:32:22] What can you do if you're co-parenting with a narcissist?

[00:32:25] If you've got significant and complex assets, what are some great ideas and what are the types of financial professionals you should work with to do that and how should you be thinking?

[00:32:33] So the short answer to your question is diverse groups.

[00:32:36] Anyone who likes to listen, anyone who likes to talk and is open to forward thinking and positive thought.

[00:32:42] I'm definitely much more suited for people who are open to being creative and thinking outside of the box than those who would prefer not to move from where they are or stay stagnant.

[00:32:54] So since that's kind of your personality and who you are, do you feel like you attract clients that align with that?

[00:33:00] Or do you attract some that are kind of stuck in victim mode?

[00:33:04] I think the vast majority of our clients are looking for a firm that can provide a custom tailored approach with a high level of detail with white glove service.

[00:33:14] And they're prepared to invest in that and they really want to create their next steps.

[00:33:17] That's the majority.

[00:33:18] We do work with some clients who initially they might be stuck and they might feel like they were victimized, but they're also people who do the work to move past that stage.

[00:33:28] That's awesome.

[00:33:29] So to my knowledge, I don't think you've written a book yet, have you?

[00:33:33] I don't want to speak out of turn, but I was wondering if there's a book coming.

[00:33:37] Well, there is a book coming, but I've written a book on prenups.

[00:33:41] Prenups are romantic, talking about a lot of things we've had here.

[00:33:44] And then custody battles, navigating custody battles against hard spouses is another one I've done.

[00:33:49] And I'm working on a book now.

[00:33:50] I don't have a title yet, but it's really talking about creating and defining yourself in your overall journey through divorce, through custody challenge and moving on to something great.

[00:34:00] That sounds like a wonderful book, actually.

[00:34:03] Thanks.

[00:34:04] I hope it will be.

[00:34:04] I'll give you a copy when I'm done.

[00:34:06] Okay.

[00:34:07] Thank you.

[00:34:08] I would love that.

[00:34:09] So is there anything else you want to tell us about your practice or your speaking engagements as we kind of wrap up?

[00:34:17] Sure.

[00:34:17] Definitely check us out on social media.

[00:34:19] Check us out online.

[00:34:20] I'm douglaslaw.com.

[00:34:22] We're on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, all the things.

[00:34:27] We do live webinars often so that we can add value to the clients and talk about different topics related to divorce and custody and family.

[00:34:35] Anyone who's in New York or Connecticut, come visit our office if you'd like.

[00:34:38] We really like to create a holistic experience for the clients and really help people thrive.

[00:34:45] That's awesome.

[00:34:46] You seem like you would be a perfect candidate for a TEDx talk too.

[00:34:50] I would love to do a TEDx talk.

[00:34:52] You seem perfect.

[00:34:53] So I think it's in the future.

[00:34:56] Well, I thank you very much for coming today and sharing your wisdom with us.

[00:35:00] And it's been wonderful.

[00:35:01] I feel like I could talk to you quite a while.

[00:35:03] So I appreciate your time.

[00:35:04] I know you're very busy.

[00:35:05] Thank you, Michelle.

[00:35:06] Likewise.

[00:35:07] It's been great.

[00:35:08] Thank you.

[00:35:09] Thanks.

[00:35:10] Bye.

[00:35:10] Bye-bye.

[00:35:23] Bye-bye.

[00:35:42] Bye-bye.

[00:35:47] Bye-bye.

[00:35:52] Bye-bye.

[00:35:54] Bye-bye.

[00:36:03] Bye-bye.

[00:36:05] Bye-bye.

[00:36:07] children the religion and the list goes on and on I also loved how Elizabeth talked about investing

[00:36:14] in self-love after a divorce I think that's huge but I think we all need to be investing in self-love

[00:36:20] right now and not in a twisted or arrogant way but just in a way that you should be taking care

[00:36:25] of yourself as well as all the others you take care of in your life so what stood out to you

[00:36:30] I'd love to hear from you as always I hope this episode helps at least one person and with that

[00:36:36] I hope you have a blessed week my friend thank you for listening to the beauty in the mess if you

[00:36:45] enjoyed what you heard please share it with a friend and if you haven't already please subscribe

[00:36:49] rate and review this podcast on your favorite pod player if you have any questions or comments any

[00:36:55] topic ideas you would like to hear about or you think you would be a great guest on the show you

[00:37:00] can reach me directly at the beauty in the mess.com thanks for listening