Ep. 52 Expert Career Coaching with Melanie Mitchell-Wexler

[00:00:00] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave

[00:00:11] a shift in mindset, personal growth and connection to like-minded people come together

[00:00:15] to start rewriting their stories.

[00:00:17] They're engaging, honest, and insightful conversations.

[00:00:21] This show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons

[00:00:25] it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift.

[00:00:30] Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:35] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess.

[00:00:38] For this episode I'm very excited to welcome Melanie Mitchell-Wexler to the show.

[00:00:43] Melanie is a job recruiter turned career coach.

[00:00:46] In fact she is a season career coach linked in strategies to specializes with job search,

[00:00:52] networking, and interviewing strategies with a career spanning over two decades.

[00:00:58] Her journey began as a job recruiter where she excelled in the art of getting candidates

[00:01:02] hired.

[00:01:03] And in 2017 she made a pivotal transition into the field of career coaching driven by her

[00:01:09] passion for demystifying the job market and providing job seekers with a transparent view

[00:01:14] of the inner workings of the hiring process.

[00:01:17] With an impressive track record as a recruiter, Melanie seamlessly translates her innate knowledge

[00:01:23] of the job market to empower her clients and their job search endeavors.

[00:01:27] Her mission centers on helping individuals uncover meaningful and fulfilling career opportunities.

[00:01:33] Melanie's expertise covers a comprehensive spectrum of career related areas including

[00:01:38] crafting, compelling resumes, optimizing job search strategies, honing interview skills,

[00:01:45] developing impactful LinkedIn profiles, and cultivating successful personal brands.

[00:01:51] Her dedication lies in facilitating her client's self-discovery, equipping them with a deep

[00:01:56] understanding of the job search process, and guiding them towards the achievement of

[00:02:00] their career goals, ultimately enabling them to secure their dream roles.

[00:02:05] Melanie's client portfolio spans from mid-level career professionals to sea level executives,

[00:02:12] encompassing diverse industries across the United States.

[00:02:15] Her rich experience coupled with her unwavering commitment to her client's success makes

[00:02:20] her a trusted partner in the journey of finding one's passion, reaching ambitious goals

[00:02:25] and thriving in the world of careers.

[00:02:27] Hi, I'm Michelle Simms your host.

[00:02:29] I'm just a regular person who along with my family have had our share of meshes that

[00:02:33] we too have had to overcome.

[00:02:36] Along the way I've got curious as to how others get through their meshes even trying

[00:02:40] to come up over them.

[00:02:41] Maybe there's a better way, a faster way, maybe we can accelerate our journeys by learning

[00:02:45] from someone else.

[00:02:47] And that started my pursuit.

[00:02:49] I think we can all learn from each other through the sharing of our experiences, lessons

[00:02:53] and knowledge.

[00:02:54] So join me for episode 52 of The Beauty and the Mess called Expert Career Coaching with

[00:03:00] Melanie Mitchell-Wexler.

[00:03:02] So without further ado, let's dive right into today's conversation.

[00:03:06] Well, hi Melanie.

[00:03:07] Welcome to The Beauty and the Mess.

[00:03:08] I'm so glad to have you with us today.

[00:03:10] Well, thank you.

[00:03:11] I'm excited to be with you today.

[00:03:14] Thank you.

[00:03:15] Now I know you're a career coach and I linked in strategists but before we start breaking

[00:03:19] that down, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit of your backstory like what

[00:03:23] led you down the path to become a career coach?

[00:03:26] Yeah.

[00:03:27] So I spent over 20 years as a recruiter.

[00:03:29] I fell into recruiting many, many moons ago and ended up making that my career wasn't

[00:03:36] necessarily what I thought I was going to do.

[00:03:38] I can always say nobody grows up saying they want to be a recruiter.

[00:03:41] And then there's nobody out there in college saying that right now.

[00:03:46] But yeah, I made a career out of becoming in the recruiting field.

[00:03:49] I worked with professionals all throughout the United States.

[00:03:52] I had opportunities throughout my career working with individuals that came from all

[00:03:56] different types of industries, all levels of experience from college graduates to sea

[00:04:01] level executives.

[00:04:03] And in 2016, I left a company after I was with them for eight years.

[00:04:08] Truthfully, I was not planning on becoming a coach that wasn't even on the list.

[00:04:14] I didn't really have a plan which is not necessarily how I coached to my clients today.

[00:04:20] But I was definitely the poster child for what not to do.

[00:04:25] I was going to go corporate recruiting had an opportunity to take a coaching course and

[00:04:31] went through it.

[00:04:32] And even after that, I understood definitely where my strengths were and everything that

[00:04:37] I could bring to the table having been on the recruiting side and been on that side

[00:04:41] of the fence.

[00:04:42] But I was still focused on corporate recruiting.

[00:04:44] And then I always say truthfully, financially, it was not in a great space that following

[00:04:49] year of 2017.

[00:04:50] So I just started doing resumes on the side.

[00:04:53] And then I'd get a client or two say, hey, can you do this?

[00:04:56] I'm like, well, yeah, I can do that.

[00:04:58] Oh, I can do that.

[00:04:59] And next thing you know, I've got this little business growing and by 2018 made the decision

[00:05:05] to do it.

[00:05:06] I had really kind of been doing it full time, but I was also working full time.

[00:05:10] And I got laid off this June of 2018 for my last full-time corporate job.

[00:05:17] And so yeah, at that point, I decided to go all in and have been doing it full time,

[00:05:22] officially full time sets.

[00:05:24] Oh, that's awesome.

[00:05:26] And I can't think of a better background to have than being a recruiter before you become

[00:05:30] a career coach.

[00:05:31] I mean, it had to be a huge platform for you to jump from.

[00:05:35] It's really something that I truly do love because as a recruiter, there were so many

[00:05:40] things I saw I would interact with candidates.

[00:05:42] I know what was happening behind the scenes with hiring managers, dealing with hiring managers.

[00:05:48] The truth is my success as a recruiter for all those years was always determined by my

[00:05:52] ability to get my candidates hired in a variety of different types of roles and positions.

[00:05:57] And so it's been a real opportunity to shed some light on what actually happens behind

[00:06:04] those scenes and how a candidate can actually navigate today's job market.

[00:06:10] So, but something that I do still get excited about being able to help individuals and kind

[00:06:15] of explain the process.

[00:06:17] So it has been a huge benefit for me.

[00:06:20] So I know you refer to yourself as an accidental entrepreneur and a real entrepreneur.

[00:06:26] Can you explain those two four?

[00:06:28] Yeah, so like I said earlier, I had no intention of becoming an entrepreneur.

[00:06:34] If you'd asked anybody in my family or my friends, I never talked about that.

[00:06:38] I was not something on my horizon.

[00:06:40] That was not something I sought out to do.

[00:06:42] I didn't have this magical idea.

[00:06:45] I don't even know if I knew I had a business to be very honest with you.

[00:06:49] What happened was it was more out of necessity than it was out of like maybe invention or

[00:06:55] innovation.

[00:06:56] So yeah, so you know, I slowly have built that into kind of accidentally falling into

[00:07:03] the entrepreneurial side.

[00:07:05] But from there, I really found something that understanding how hard you have to work

[00:07:10] as an entrepreneur, especially as a solo pernure, everything definitely rides on you.

[00:07:14] I mean, it's a roller coaster and really kind of coming into my own now of really owning

[00:07:21] that and what it takes sharing that side of my story as well.

[00:07:25] I think it's also really important for those individuals because I do work with people

[00:07:29] that are all the time thinking about, well, I could become a consultant, I could do this,

[00:07:34] I can you know, embracing their strengths but also being able to share kind of like,

[00:07:39] okay, well, there's this other side of this business too that you have to be aware of.

[00:07:43] Are you going to be equipped to be able to handle that?

[00:07:46] So yeah, so it's been a journey on both sides.

[00:07:49] Really honestly, I'm really from entering this and then starting a business and learning

[00:07:54] a lot, making a lot of mistakes and learning along the way as well.

[00:07:58] Yeah, that's something I wanted to ask you because at least me and I could be way off

[00:08:03] for most people, I don't know.

[00:08:05] We think of career coach as prepping us for like an industrial job or a corporate job.

[00:08:13] But how many times do you have clients that you actually end up coaching them to become

[00:08:18] an entrepreneur?

[00:08:19] I mean, how many do you say, man, you could really just fly with this on your own.

[00:08:23] Does that happen very often?

[00:08:25] Yeah, it actually happens and I also have entrepreneurs that are wanting to get back into the corporate

[00:08:31] space.

[00:08:32] Okay.

[00:08:33] Then how do you do that?

[00:08:34] I've definitely say that that piece of that has expanded in the last several years for

[00:08:38] really post-pandemic.

[00:08:40] I think what's really kind of awakened a lot of people in terms of, what do you want to

[00:08:44] do?

[00:08:45] Where do you want to go?

[00:08:46] I've had clients that have sought out the direction of staying in corporate or changing

[00:08:50] jobs.

[00:08:51] And one of my clients, for example, is in video production.

[00:08:55] She does video production services for different clients and she was going to stay in corporate

[00:09:02] and then we went through the coaching process.

[00:09:05] Where do that coaching process is really seeking out your potential mentors, people that know

[00:09:10] you and getting advice.

[00:09:12] And a lot of people were like, you have the resources, you have the connections.

[00:09:17] And so I worked with her in terms of her establishing herself as her own business and she's now

[00:09:22] been doing it for several years.

[00:09:24] I currently have a client that is also, he has been a coach.

[00:09:29] He's worked in corporate as well.

[00:09:31] So we're kind of blending the two right now and we're bringing the two together because

[00:09:34] he's looking for more consulting opportunities or opportunities to lead employee workshops,

[00:09:40] helping build up company culture and kind of blending both of those.

[00:09:44] And so really being able to tap into another area to help him not just grow his business

[00:09:51] but also his personal brand and be able to expand the services that he currently offers.

[00:09:57] So I do get excited about working with kind of those individuals too because it's something

[00:10:03] that resonates with me.

[00:10:05] And again, being able to kind of reflect on my own journey and things that I have learned

[00:10:09] and how can I best help them.

[00:10:11] But in essence the questions are different but the process is really still the same in

[00:10:16] terms of the direction and how do you build that and where do you find those opportunities?

[00:10:22] Who do you connect with?

[00:10:23] A lot of that is still the same as you would if it's a corporate or private sector job.

[00:10:27] So since the pandemic especially if you've seen a lot of people that have been in the

[00:10:31] same position for quite a while like want to transition into something different, is that

[00:10:36] happening more so?

[00:10:38] I would say it definitely is.

[00:10:39] I think people had a very big awakening and understanding like okay, taking account of

[00:10:44] what's happening around them, what is the company culture?

[00:10:47] I think especially with like company culture and are they a valued employee?

[00:10:52] Is it a good environment to work in?

[00:10:53] I think having the opportunity to work remotely has been huge for a lot of people.

[00:10:59] And that's also being kind of on the table possibly being taken away because now several

[00:11:06] years out and now companies are going back to the conversation of like we should be working

[00:11:10] in house.

[00:11:11] And now employees are saying, but I've proved myself and I've was able to successfully

[00:11:17] do it.

[00:11:18] Why do I need to be in the office full time?

[00:11:20] So I think it just really made people take stock of what's important in their lives

[00:11:26] and I think we were faced with that head on in probably a very realistic brutal kind of way

[00:11:33] unfortunately, but it really did make people kind of evaluate where does their career

[00:11:39] set and where do they want to be?

[00:11:42] And is this really where I want to be an X amount of years?

[00:11:46] Oh, for that person that's looking for a new corporate job or entering it for the first

[00:11:51] time either way.

[00:11:52] What do you think is the hardest component to seeking a new job if you haven't for quite

[00:11:57] some time?

[00:11:58] I think the one thing that I would say that I feel like people make a misstep of is they

[00:12:03] automatically go to when they start in whether they're pivoting or they start to go, hey,

[00:12:10] you know, haven't looked for a job in awhile.

[00:12:12] I'm automatically going to go, I need to update my resume.

[00:12:16] Hopefully they're also saying LinkedIn as well.

[00:12:18] Of course, I'm a big LinkedIn advocate.

[00:12:19] I definitely believe in the power of LinkedIn, but they automatically go there.

[00:12:24] And I would say that most people miss the first step or don't recognize that there is a

[00:12:28] first step and that's really again, taking stock of what are our strengths?

[00:12:33] What are our weaknesses?

[00:12:35] What are the things that we really love to do?

[00:12:38] But also is equally important.

[00:12:39] What are the things you don't want to do?

[00:12:43] And not that I think that there is quote unquote the perfect job because you know, there's

[00:12:49] good and bad with everything, but if you could paint that picture, what does your job look

[00:12:55] like to you?

[00:12:56] What are your hours?

[00:12:57] You know, is it remote?

[00:12:58] Is it hybrid?

[00:12:59] Is it in office because that may still be appealing to you?

[00:13:03] What is your salary?

[00:13:04] What are the benefits really creating that picture so to speak?

[00:13:08] And laying that out for yourself and understanding then what are your non-negotiables of that?

[00:13:13] You know, what are the things that you're willing to negotiate?

[00:13:16] And what's what I call the icing on the cake?

[00:13:17] If you got it, that would be great, but it's not a must have.

[00:13:21] And then from there start crafting the resume, start crafting the LinkedIn profile.

[00:13:29] Definitely foundation for the job search, but we have to start with like knowing where

[00:13:33] we want to go.

[00:13:34] It's definitely like a map.

[00:13:36] It's a roadmap of our careers.

[00:13:37] We've got to start with knowing where we want to go in what direction?

[00:13:41] What are the types of positions that interest me?

[00:13:43] Do some research ahead of time before we start to do the resume?

[00:13:47] And what I find is people miss this big chunk and then start focusing on the resume,

[00:13:53] which is obviously important.

[00:13:55] But then we end up in the same spot.

[00:13:58] We maybe were already in or we didn't like that type of environment because it's the

[00:14:03] only thing that we know.

[00:14:04] Or we repeat those same mistakes that we may be trying to avoid or evade in terms of

[00:14:10] the reason we're changing jobs.

[00:14:12] So what I'm understanding from you is your resume is more than just a list of your

[00:14:17] job accomplishments, but it can actually kind of guide where you end up depending on how

[00:14:22] you format it and the details that you put in it.

[00:14:26] Is that correct?

[00:14:27] Yeah.

[00:14:28] I would challenge people to think of your resume as like where do you want to go?

[00:14:32] That should be the direction.

[00:14:34] And all of that background and all of that experience and those highlights and those achievements

[00:14:38] still very important, but that's what's going to help you get there.

[00:14:42] Those are kind of like the vehicle that's going to help you get there.

[00:14:44] But where do you want to go?

[00:14:46] Are you ready to move?

[00:14:47] Are you ready to say move up to the next level in your organization or overall if you want

[00:14:53] to move from maybe staff to management or management to director level.

[00:14:58] You need to shape your resume in the way that showcases you doing that, at those higher

[00:15:03] level types of responsibilities and duties.

[00:15:06] And so you have to be aware of like, okay, well what are companies looking for when they're

[00:15:11] going to hire somebody like that?

[00:15:13] What's important to them?

[00:15:15] And then identify those things that are relatable, that are transferrable I should say to those

[00:15:20] types of skills.

[00:15:21] Yeah, I never really thought about it setting the path to where you're going.

[00:15:25] I just thought of it as listing like everything you've done.

[00:15:29] So that's interesting.

[00:15:30] Yeah, I would say it's how we were trained growing up and thinking like, oh, I want

[00:15:35] to look for a job.

[00:15:36] I got to put my resume together in.

[00:15:38] And I think what has happened and even when I put myself in the job market back in 2017

[00:15:44] I fully understood what to expect.

[00:15:46] I mean, I had been doing this and you know, and even then the market had changed slightly

[00:15:51] at that point.

[00:15:52] And it's continuing to evolve to the point of we have all sorts of unemployment numbers

[00:15:57] in this and that.

[00:15:58] And I don't know if those experts really know what's happening in this market as well.

[00:16:01] But the market is continuing to evolve.

[00:16:05] And we need to evolve with it.

[00:16:07] And I think that's something that job seekers sometimes miss out on is they start at

[00:16:12] that step, which is what a lot of people really kind of think about.

[00:16:17] So do you find yourself actually having to coach people through like imposter syndrome because

[00:16:22] I'm thinking as they gear their resume towards what they want then all those doubts could

[00:16:27] start coming in and hey, maybe I'm not ready for that or yeah, I absolutely do 100%

[00:16:34] because and I'm very big on mindset mindset helped me overcome changing my mindset.

[00:16:39] So I should say and really kind of focusing on a positive mindset helped me overcome

[00:16:43] a lot of challenges for myself in the jobs, the job market and the job search when I was

[00:16:48] in it.

[00:16:49] So that's been a big cornerstone of like my foundation.

[00:16:52] But I work on that all the time because I have one client right now she is not in a good

[00:16:57] environment very kind of toxic management, upper level management and you know, wondering

[00:17:03] well, maybe I can't find another opportunity that's going to pay me the same or I can't

[00:17:09] find the opportunity that's going to give me that next step up that I'm looking for.

[00:17:14] And I think especially, especially as women women tend to do this a little bit more is

[00:17:21] we undervalue and undercut ourselves.

[00:17:24] And when I was talking earlier, we don't do that research right?

[00:17:28] We don't do that.

[00:17:29] We assume and I did it too.

[00:17:30] I mean, I should have left that company I was with for eight years much earlier than I

[00:17:35] did.

[00:17:36] But I was like, well, I have a lot of freedom my boss really supports me.

[00:17:40] There was other things wrong with that organization, but I didn't put myself first and make

[00:17:46] myself a priority.

[00:17:48] And I was like, I really kind of shut the door on myself a lot of times by thinking there

[00:17:53] wasn't going to be anything else that can match this.

[00:17:56] And instead of like really exploring opportunities, I didn't do myself the justice, you know,

[00:18:01] the due justice.

[00:18:02] And so I work with people to really kind of like, let's discuss this.

[00:18:07] Let's do the research.

[00:18:08] Let's find the facts because a lot of times we make assumptions without the facts in

[00:18:13] tack.

[00:18:14] And even if they don't necessarily match up, okay, well, what can we do with this?

[00:18:18] What's the next option?

[00:18:20] And so open that door to opportunities.

[00:18:23] Give yourself that chance to really explore what is out there in today's market.

[00:18:28] So Centura LinkedIn strategist, I have to ask you, what does LinkedIn do for us that

[00:18:32] our resume alone doesn't do besides show your picture perhaps?

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:38] So think about LinkedIn.

[00:18:40] LinkedIn is turned on 24, 7.

[00:18:42] So LinkedIn is always working for you whereas a resume still has power and resume still

[00:18:49] has significance, but your LinkedIn can be working for you for a passive or an active job

[00:18:55] search.

[00:18:56] So there's a lot of things you can do to optimize your LinkedIn profile.

[00:19:00] When you optimize your LinkedIn profile, it can attract people to come and check your

[00:19:05] profile out, be able to be found to be seen as an expert in your field.

[00:19:10] Regardless if you maybe are in a job search but maybe you're looking for opportunities

[00:19:15] as a leader in your industry.

[00:19:17] So there's so much that a good optimized LinkedIn profile can do for you and understanding

[00:19:23] kind of how the platform works.

[00:19:25] I used LinkedIn when I was a recruiter for many, many years but I didn't use it from the

[00:19:31] standpoint that of course that I use it now and I didn't really.

[00:19:35] And when I first started this, I didn't really understand the power of it until I started

[00:19:40] getting trained on it and learning from some of the best out there in the industry.

[00:19:45] And that's really what kind of how I brought LinkedIn into my coaching field because or

[00:19:50] into my practice because I was like, there's so much power here for a job seeker that

[00:19:55] they've got to tap into.

[00:19:57] It's more than just, you know, it is have job-words functionalities but you can expand your

[00:20:01] network and I think networking is a huge piece in terms of how to navigate today's

[00:20:06] job market.

[00:20:07] Does LinkedIn only show your profile to people in your network or can other people see

[00:20:12] it?

[00:20:13] Yeah, definitely.

[00:20:14] As long as you have the different levels of privacy settings available.

[00:20:18] So one of those things is if you and I are connected for example, then you become what

[00:20:23] they call a second degree connection to all of my connections.

[00:20:27] So now you've automatically kind of thinking of it as exponential growth right and then

[00:20:33] you're growing so now my connections, you're likely to show up higher in their searches when

[00:20:40] they're doing searches.

[00:20:41] And so thinking about like okay, if I connect with this person but it also helps us get

[00:20:47] introductions to people, you can see like oh, you know, you and Bob are connected and

[00:20:52] I see that Bob works at my dream company.

[00:20:55] Could you make an introduction based on your relationship?

[00:20:58] So there's a lot of power there but yeah as soon as you connect with somebody it exponentially

[00:21:04] grows but gives you an expansive network to be able to tap into.

[00:21:09] Wow.

[00:21:10] So how does that little, I think it says ready for work or something like that.

[00:21:14] I see people from my organization with that on their profile and I'm thinking oh my,

[00:21:19] if the wrong person sees that but maybe they don't care.

[00:21:23] I don't know but can you hide that from people?

[00:21:26] Yeah, I see you die.

[00:21:28] I definitely don't recommend if you're employed to use that.

[00:21:32] Yeah, I would think so either.

[00:21:34] I definitely don't recommend that but you can there is an option that is actually for

[00:21:39] yes.

[00:21:40] You can see the open to work, the green banner.

[00:21:43] You can see that 100% that's for everyone to be seen but if you don't want that, you

[00:21:50] can actually use the second option is what they call for just recruiters that use the

[00:21:55] LinkedIn recruiter platform which is kind of the behind scenes database that they use to

[00:22:00] help find candidates and that just limits you to being able to be found by recruiters

[00:22:05] who are using that platform to find candidates and to use it as an applicant tracking system.

[00:22:12] I agree with you 100% that LinkedIn is a very powerful tool but I don't think most of us

[00:22:17] know near what we need to know to be able to utilize it, you know what I mean?

[00:22:22] I really went full all in because a lot of my business comes from there so I really took

[00:22:28] an opportunity to learn as much as I possibly can about the platform and being able to

[00:22:35] get to the point where I could coach job seekers on how to build their profile and one

[00:22:42] embracing their brands a lot of job seekers don't think that they have a brand per se but

[00:22:47] then how do you show up, how do you optimize a profile?

[00:22:51] Really being able to fully yeah just being able to fully go from that direction is really

[00:22:57] what I went all in and I've been kind of expanding my knowledge ever since and I coach

[00:23:02] nail clients on that level of from their profiles but also helping them with their strategy

[00:23:07] and how to navigate the platform itself.

[00:23:09] That's awesome.

[00:23:10] You just touched on something I was going to ask you because I don't think most of us

[00:23:14] think we have a personal brand so what is that and how do we have it and not know it?

[00:23:20] Yeah well I think we often things when we say branding think of of of course the big names,

[00:23:25] the Starbucks, the Nike's, we know those brands, we know McDonald's.

[00:23:30] Yeah McDonald's and we know what they offer and what they do and everything like that

[00:23:35] and then we say well I don't have a brand, I'm not selling anything and it's really

[00:23:40] not necessarily what you're selling.

[00:23:42] It's more of like what is your what I call your unique value proposition?

[00:23:47] What problem do you solve if you're a job seeker kind of framing that in that regard,

[00:23:53] how can you help that employer?

[00:23:56] What are you really great at?

[00:23:58] What makes you stand out from somebody else and that really then starts to become what

[00:24:03] your brand is about.

[00:24:06] Where are you as a leader in your industry?

[00:24:09] Have you really gained a specialty that you can focus on and I think that and whether

[00:24:14] you're a college graduates to that sea level executive, we all have those skills.

[00:24:21] We all have them.

[00:24:22] We maybe aren't embracing them or maybe haven't packaged them in that kind of manner but

[00:24:27] we have that.

[00:24:28] And so it's just really refraining some of that information and looking at it through

[00:24:33] a different lens.

[00:24:34] Last while yeah, I'm one of the people that I would not guess that I had a brand unless

[00:24:41] you purposely are out there like you said trying to sell yourself or sell something you

[00:24:46] don't think of yourself as having a brand most of us.

[00:24:49] Yeah.

[00:24:50] I definitely didn't necessarily think that about myself either and even as a coach,

[00:24:55] I've kind of evolved in terms of what is it that makes me different when it's a career

[00:25:02] coach.

[00:25:03] Of course, I always embrace my recruiting but maybe I've learned to embrace it a lot

[00:25:07] more because I kind of made an assumption that a lot of people would already have very

[00:25:12] similar backgrounds like myself like coming from a hiring or a recruiting type of background

[00:25:17] that I found is that's not always the case.

[00:25:20] Yeah, I don't think it is.

[00:25:22] Yeah and it was actually through fellow coach of mine who's also a really good dear friend

[00:25:27] and we do a LinkedIn audio room on a weekly basis and he always would introduce me as

[00:25:33] a former recruiter and he would always talk highly of it.

[00:25:36] And it's one of those things that you finally hear it enough and it's like, yeah, you're

[00:25:42] right.

[00:25:43] So it's one of those things that I always mentioned it but I didn't necessarily embrace it or

[00:25:49] put it completely forward value.

[00:25:51] Yeah, or value it.

[00:25:54] And so I kind of underestimated the value of what it meant to others and so when that

[00:26:01] light bulb went off and we even having conversations with him, he used the one that really said,

[00:26:06] hey, no, this is really where you need to be selling yourself from and really where

[00:26:11] you should be pushing yourself from because this is unique in terms of what your potential

[00:26:18] clients may be seeing out there in the market or about what they're looking for.

[00:26:22] So, right?

[00:26:23] So for me it was even a progress but it was even an adjustment.

[00:26:26] Yeah, because I can see that being a huge advantage for the career that you're in now

[00:26:32] because you know all about it.

[00:26:34] You used to be the person that was out there seeking the people that are trying to

[00:26:38] be found.

[00:26:39] Yes.

[00:26:42] So, yeah, it's a perfect fit.

[00:26:44] Yeah, that's huge.

[00:26:46] So I also want to ask about your thoughts on the dreaded interview.

[00:26:51] What about someone who hasn't interviewed in 20 years maybe and they want to go?

[00:26:57] I mean, that has to be mortifying, I would think.

[00:27:00] Yeah, here's what I will say when it comes to interviewing.

[00:27:03] But the one thing that I wish people would do more of is practice in advance.

[00:27:08] I always say there's no new interview questions unless somebody just is going to ask you something

[00:27:12] funky.

[00:27:13] I mean, they're like those random kind of tree would you be in those types of questions.

[00:27:19] But overall, there's really no new interview questions.

[00:27:22] I mean, they're just framed very differently or asked in different manners.

[00:27:26] But I think to answer your question, I think the one thing that I look for that I tell

[00:27:30] people they should be doing all the time is the moment you think you're starting to you

[00:27:35] want to start doing looking for a job or you're already looking for a job is take time

[00:27:41] to practice.

[00:27:42] And it doesn't have to be with a coach, it can be with a mentor or somebody that you know

[00:27:47] that understands your industry and you've worked with that it's a trusted partner if

[00:27:52] you're looking to leave.

[00:27:53] It could also be friends or it could also be family members.

[00:27:56] But start practicing even some of the simple questions like tell me about yourself.

[00:28:01] Why did you choose to leave this position?

[00:28:03] Tell me a little bit about this role.

[00:28:05] How do you handle conflict?

[00:28:07] Think about the types of questions that you would ask if you were the one hiring for

[00:28:11] the role.

[00:28:12] People do not plan in advance for the interview and confidence is key when it comes to I can

[00:28:19] tell you we often wonder, how did that person get that job?

[00:28:22] Like they didn't have a lot of experience but a lot of times it's because they were

[00:28:27] the most confident.

[00:28:29] It's not necessarily doesn't always mean about experiences that confidence is an attractive

[00:28:34] trait that we do look for in individuals.

[00:28:37] And so practice, practice, practice.

[00:28:40] Not to the point where you're sounding robotic but to the point you're comfortable and can

[00:28:45] convey that information in a confident manner.

[00:28:48] That's really the key.

[00:28:49] What I find happens is a lot of times I get connected somebody will reach out and go,

[00:28:54] oh my god, I've got an interview tomorrow.

[00:28:57] Can you help me?

[00:28:58] And yeah, I can still help you but it's much better if we had started that process months

[00:29:05] ago and building up those answers and knowing how to answer and knowing how to practice.

[00:29:12] Okay, you know what?

[00:29:13] I stumbled on that question so obviously I need to practice my response better or let me

[00:29:18] look at my answer better.

[00:29:20] Being able to really find the information that's important to tell a story which is interviewing

[00:29:25] is really just a conversational story.

[00:29:28] It's just a conversation between two people and you're getting sharing snippets of your

[00:29:33] career, your thoughts and experiences.

[00:29:36] But that's the thing I would really encourage people to start practicing now.

[00:29:41] If you're in the job search right now and you're actively looking, make at least a couple

[00:29:46] hours a week where you're practicing job interviewing.

[00:29:50] Like I just gave some examples of some questions.

[00:29:53] And those are all questions that I would almost guarantee 99%.

[00:29:57] You're going to be asked in some way shape or form.

[00:30:00] And if you start preparing now, then when you get to that interview, you're going to feel

[00:30:06] that confidence.

[00:30:07] You're not going to feel scared.

[00:30:09] You're not going to feel intimidated especially if you haven't been interviewing.

[00:30:14] So that's the biggest thing that I really try to push and recommend to people is start

[00:30:18] practicing now.

[00:30:19] So are there some things that you should never say in an interview?

[00:30:23] Like I've heard even if you left your last position or company kind of on bad terms, maybe

[00:30:29] not on bad terms but you didn't like something about the former employer that you should

[00:30:35] never ring that up.

[00:30:36] You do want to be as positive.

[00:30:38] I mean, I don't think you need to be again, the unicorns and the rainbows types of positive

[00:30:43] to the point that it's not real.

[00:30:45] You're like a little ride and like, oh, that person's a little too sunny for me.

[00:30:51] But you do want to be, you always want to be, you want to be truthful and I don't want

[00:30:55] this to sound.

[00:30:56] I don't want this to come out the wrong way.

[00:30:58] But you don't necessarily have to give every single detail of what happened.

[00:31:02] Right.

[00:31:03] So I think where people fail is say, for example, you had that bad boss and you can simply

[00:31:09] say at the end of the day, I did have issues with how my boss managed.

[00:31:15] It was not a positive environment for me to be in professionally and really did not

[00:31:20] see an opportunity for advancement.

[00:31:22] Maybe not even saying that I had issues with the boss.

[00:31:25] See again, I'm just practicing this question answering it as if I was responding.

[00:31:31] And so one of the things is really kind of practicing what your response to that is but

[00:31:35] try to keep it very limited.

[00:31:38] Keep your information limited so you're not like, oh my gosh, my boss treated me this way

[00:31:43] and he was so toxic and he would yell and scream at me.

[00:31:46] And then all of a sudden you're like, you've given way too much information as opposed

[00:31:50] to truthfully it was not the right environment for me.

[00:31:54] I had expected XYZ that was not what was delivered to that's why I'm looking.

[00:32:00] And then you stop talking.

[00:32:02] And that's the key in that question.

[00:32:04] And really any question to be honest, it's just stop talking.

[00:32:08] Like give your answer but don't over share.

[00:32:13] I feel like that's one thing that a lot of us do when we're nervous is we feel like you

[00:32:18] can't have silence.

[00:32:19] You know what I mean?

[00:32:20] Yeah, you gotta keep on that airspace.

[00:32:23] And like to your point, I think it trips people up because they just keep rambling.

[00:32:28] So it's a sales technique is the whole silence of not being the first quote unquote the first

[00:32:34] to break and it's something that I actually had gotten very good at it throughout my recruiting

[00:32:38] career in terms of negotiations whether that was with clients or candidates.

[00:32:43] And I even made a joke the other day with a friend of mine that we were on a call and

[00:32:47] I had asked a question of some others and I was like, I was prepared to be there online

[00:32:51] so they answered the question.

[00:32:53] I was just going to, I stopped talking.

[00:32:56] So for me, it's almost a fun thing I do now because I did it so much as a recruiter but

[00:33:02] it really, it is hard.

[00:33:04] It is awkward because you're like, okay, nobody's talking and I feel like I need to talk and

[00:33:11] oh, maybe I need to add something else.

[00:33:13] And really you don't, you just need to answer your response.

[00:33:17] And oftentimes the things that we feel like we are stressed out about really aren't that

[00:33:22] big of a deal when we just say it very matter of factly into the point.

[00:33:27] It's when we add all the extra stuff that now it's like, okay, I was good back there

[00:33:34] and you're beginning answers.

[00:33:38] So really practicing that pause, that moment of silence.

[00:33:42] And I tell my clients a lot of times just stop talking.

[00:33:45] Don't say another word, don't add anything to it.

[00:33:48] I said, but I'm like, I know it's going to be awkward but it will benefit you.

[00:33:54] And if we practice that, we'll get better about it.

[00:33:57] It really is never that long.

[00:33:59] It just feels like it's forever when we're in that moment.

[00:34:03] So I never thought of practicing the pause though.

[00:34:06] I think that's excellent advice.

[00:34:09] And I think we probably all should in today's world maybe practice that pause before we

[00:34:14] speak on a lot of things.

[00:34:16] I think it's right.

[00:34:18] I think maybe we all take that out of the job search concept and just practice the pause

[00:34:24] in life.

[00:34:25] And don't say anything quite yet.

[00:34:28] So if you're in an interview and you feel like you just loved something, can you recover

[00:34:34] from it?

[00:34:35] Do you think?

[00:34:36] Yeah, I mean, I think humility is something that people do respect and do appreciate.

[00:34:41] And the truth is here, if hiring manager is somebody that's interviewing you doesn't have

[00:34:48] a little grace for that, I don't know it's going to be the right person for you to begin

[00:34:52] with to be very honest.

[00:34:54] So if you do flub, if you don't really like the answer you gave, one thing that you can

[00:34:59] do is you can always say like, okay, that's a really good question.

[00:35:02] I'm just going to take a quick second here just to collect my thoughts before I respond.

[00:35:07] Again, we're doing the pause.

[00:35:09] We're not just blurting out the first thing that comes to our mind or rambling on about

[00:35:14] random things that maybe don't apply.

[00:35:17] And then if you feel like you didn't answer the question, you can always come back to

[00:35:22] that and do I've had a moment to reflect on that earlier answer to the question that

[00:35:26] you had about X, Y and Z.

[00:35:28] And I was really kind of thinking I'd like to maybe add on or give some additional insight

[00:35:33] into my answer from that perspective and then give that response.

[00:35:37] Most of the people will always allow you that opportunity.

[00:35:40] And again, if somebody doesn't necessarily have that grace for you, it may not be the

[00:35:46] right employer for you to begin with.

[00:35:48] Very true.

[00:35:49] So if you have a client that at least doesn't display confidence well or maybe they don't

[00:35:55] have a whole lot of confidence, do you coach them in that area too?

[00:35:59] You try to get them ready.

[00:36:01] I mean, like build up their confidence.

[00:36:03] Yeah.

[00:36:04] Definitely do.

[00:36:05] I try to work with them on identifying the things that they're strong at, recognizing

[00:36:11] that in themselves, being very vocal about it, being able to say, I am great at this.

[00:36:17] I am good at this.

[00:36:18] That's a hard thing.

[00:36:20] It's a hard thing to do.

[00:36:22] It never feels natural.

[00:36:24] I'm in the little bit of a fitness journey of my life right now and even my trainer was

[00:36:29] like, I did high needs today for example.

[00:36:32] And she's like, when you first started, you were going really slow.

[00:36:37] And now you just do them with ease and you're doing them very quickly.

[00:36:40] And I was like, I'm going to give you that one today.

[00:36:42] I'm going to give it to you.

[00:36:44] I'm going to acknowledge it because it's hard for me to kind of acknowledge those things

[00:36:48] about myself in terms of my progress.

[00:36:50] And the same goes with confidence.

[00:36:52] So sometimes if we've been in bad environments or with bad bosses or bad companies and maybe

[00:36:57] the position you had wasn't the right opportunity and it wasn't the right place for you, we sometimes

[00:37:03] beat ourselves up.

[00:37:05] And we don't recognize.

[00:37:06] We are really good.

[00:37:07] Like no matter, sometimes it's the situation you're in or maybe it's a period of your life

[00:37:13] that is maybe wasn't a great period so you didn't show up as your best self.

[00:37:18] And maybe you didn't produce the best quality of work or there can always be a lot of reasons

[00:37:22] behind that.

[00:37:23] But I think taking the time and acknowledging, you know what?

[00:37:26] I am good at this.

[00:37:28] I do deserve this job opportunity.

[00:37:30] You need to show up as that person.

[00:37:33] That's the person we want to hire.

[00:37:34] That's the person that is going to land the job.

[00:37:37] I've been on the other side of the interview table and I can tell you, I know when somebody

[00:37:42] was going through something, they didn't have to tell it to me or they just kind of had

[00:37:47] a negative presence about them or how they presented themselves or how they talked.

[00:37:54] And as a recruiter, I couldn't really be like, wow, I'm getting a negative vibe from

[00:37:57] you and some hiring authorities.

[00:38:00] I couldn't say that and really kind of help a person out in that regard.

[00:38:04] Right.

[00:38:05] So now as a coach, I do really, I am a very direct coach.

[00:38:08] I will kind of just say, hey, this is what I'm feeling.

[00:38:12] And this is what I'm sensing from you and I will tell you no matter what, it will show

[00:38:18] up in the interview.

[00:38:20] It will show up and how you are interacting with others.

[00:38:24] And those are things that we need to be mindful of.

[00:38:27] I mean, some of the best advice I ever got, I graduated college.

[00:38:32] I was landing interviews but I couldn't land the job.

[00:38:34] And so some friend of the family gave me a mock interview, told me I wasn't looking

[00:38:40] directly at her.

[00:38:41] I was answering my questions but not staying focused on her.

[00:38:45] And so that's actually a piece of advice that's lasted with me my entire life.

[00:38:49] I'm always very mindful.

[00:38:51] Look ahead, look straight at the person.

[00:38:53] I maintain eye contact.

[00:38:54] Maintainfully eye contact.

[00:38:56] I've carried that piece of advice with me my entire life at this point, my professional

[00:39:01] life.

[00:39:02] And so just understanding if you have that opportunity to get advice from somebody, I think is really

[00:39:08] important.

[00:39:09] So it's important to recognize the things that you're really good at.

[00:39:13] And what are those strengths and what do you bring to the table?

[00:39:16] You want that person to show up for the interview?

[00:39:18] Absolutely.

[00:39:19] Yeah, I was just going to say you made me curious, Wes, I was listening to you talk

[00:39:23] that kind of confident person since you've been an interviewer as well, kind of confident

[00:39:28] person kind of direct or what I mean by direct is kind of steer the interview in their

[00:39:34] favor.

[00:39:35] Or is it interview pretty much set?

[00:39:37] It's just a road list of questions and that's going to happen anyway.

[00:39:41] I think it really depends on the style of the interview.

[00:39:43] I do my interviews, always did my interviews very conversational style.

[00:39:47] So in that kind of case, I think you do have the ability to kind of lean into the direction

[00:39:54] that you maybe want to go in or get an opportunity to interject like, oh, on that note, I would

[00:40:00] like to share with you another experience that relates to your question or being able

[00:40:05] to give that additional information.

[00:40:08] I do think if you do have that standard interview, or like sometimes the first interview is just

[00:40:13] kind of really generic for the generic questions to get to know me.

[00:40:17] They're looking to kind of check certain boxes.

[00:40:19] You maybe don't necessarily have the opportunity to give a lot more.

[00:40:24] You want to stay on track and make sure you are answering the questions, things of that

[00:40:28] nature.

[00:40:30] But somebody with confidence can definitely say something like, I'm highly interested

[00:40:35] in this position.

[00:40:36] I know I can do this position.

[00:40:38] Confidence does not mean that you're cocky or arrogant.

[00:40:41] It just means that you have that strong belief in yourself and that's the belief that

[00:40:45] you display.

[00:40:47] And actually, I had a moment of confidence in my very first interview I ever had for my

[00:40:52] first recruiting job.

[00:40:53] I don't know where the girl came from at that moment.

[00:40:56] I had my executive vice president.

[00:40:59] I had to meet her.

[00:41:00] She told me flat out she did not think that I could do the job because I didn't have any

[00:41:05] experiences in her career.

[00:41:06] But it was very blunt.

[00:41:07] Wow.

[00:41:08] Tell me she did not think I could do the job.

[00:41:10] This random girl pops out of me and picks up this phone.

[00:41:15] I'm old here.

[00:41:16] There's the actual phone and picks up the phone and says, yes, I can.

[00:41:21] I can do this job.

[00:41:23] I know I can do this job.

[00:41:25] I guess I didn't really think I had anything to lose at that point.

[00:41:28] Like I said, I don't know where that girl came from in that moment.

[00:41:31] I've never done anything like that in an interview.

[00:41:34] But ultimately, that's what got me hired.

[00:41:36] It was just me kind of standing up for myself and saying, yeah, I can do this job.

[00:41:41] Like, what are you talking about?

[00:41:44] And I always felt like she always doubted me most of my career up until I left that company.

[00:41:49] And even then she told me at the end, she's like, you absolutely proved yourself 100%

[00:41:54] that you can do this job.

[00:41:55] That stuck with her even after I was with that company for three years and that stuck

[00:41:59] with her for three years.

[00:42:01] Wow.

[00:42:02] But I was always trying to prove myself to her.

[00:42:04] I bet.

[00:42:05] Because I was always like, no, I have to be like the best recruiter.

[00:42:10] I have to be the number one recruiter.

[00:42:12] I have to be the number one person on the list because I've got to show her I can do this

[00:42:16] job.

[00:42:17] That's a pretty neat story.

[00:42:19] One thing I loved about you that I read about you was that as a career coach, you're

[00:42:24] very direct with people and you tell people right up front that you are expecting them

[00:42:29] to do some of the work too.

[00:42:30] You're not there to service them 100% and spoon feed them that they're going to have to

[00:42:36] partake in this as well.

[00:42:37] So would you want to talk about that for a moment?

[00:42:39] Yeah.

[00:42:40] So a lot of people ask me, can you make a guarantee?

[00:42:43] Can you make a guarantee?

[00:42:44] And I always say here's the reality of it.

[00:42:46] I was a recruiter for 20 years and never guaranteed you placement on a job.

[00:42:50] Your reason is, is my product is a human being.

[00:42:54] I do not control that human being and sometimes I'd have to explain that to clients as well

[00:42:58] when my candidates would not do well in an interview or say the wrong thing.

[00:43:03] I'm like, you're not a little earpiece in their ear.

[00:43:07] I can't control them.

[00:43:10] I wasn't holding their hands.

[00:43:12] I will be real with you and I will be honest with you and I will be a partner with you.

[00:43:17] But I can't even as a coach, I cannot necessarily guarantee the outcome because the outcome is

[00:43:24] dependent upon you.

[00:43:26] The outcome is dependent upon who is going to show up for that interview and maybe we've

[00:43:32] all had a bad interview.

[00:43:33] We've all had it.

[00:43:34] We've all walked away going, oh, that was bad.

[00:43:38] Like, not going to get hired there.

[00:43:42] It's happened to me.

[00:43:43] It's happened to me.

[00:43:45] So yeah, so I mean, I can't guarantee that.

[00:43:48] But what I can say is yes, I'm going to be your partner and I'm going to help you.

[00:43:53] But you've got to want it more than I want it.

[00:43:57] You have to want it more than me because you're going to be the catalyst that makes this happen.

[00:44:03] I can give you the tools and I can help refine those tools in that toolbox and I can coach

[00:44:08] you along the way and I can be your cheerleader.

[00:44:11] I'm not a family member.

[00:44:14] I'm not a friend so I don't necessarily have that.

[00:44:17] I'm definitely invested in my clients where of course, I'm like, yeah, I have a few clients

[00:44:21] right now that I'm just like, oh, my gosh, somebody has to see how perfect and great

[00:44:27] these people are.

[00:44:28] I'm literally like they have to.

[00:44:30] They have to because I think so highly of them.

[00:44:33] But at the end of the day, I have to have you do the job because you're the one that's

[00:44:38] going to make it happen.

[00:44:40] And I can make introductions.

[00:44:41] I can get connected with recruiters and hiring managers.

[00:44:44] I can show you how to do it, what to say but at the end of the day, you've got to be able

[00:44:50] to be strong enough in yourself to carry that forward and to carry that over the finish

[00:44:55] line.

[00:44:56] Right.

[00:44:57] And sometimes maybe not as much but sometimes it's also the interviewer right there might

[00:45:01] be a personality clash.

[00:45:02] That person may have had a bad day.

[00:45:04] You may show up as the perfect interviewee but that other person has something going

[00:45:10] on and that could spoil the interview as well.

[00:45:13] I'm sure.

[00:45:14] Yeah, here's the thing nobody teaches you even as a recruiter.

[00:45:18] I wasn't a recruiter before.

[00:45:19] I was worked for nonprofit and did fundraising and special events.

[00:45:24] I mean, I learned a process of interviewing but a lot of people get thrown into interviews

[00:45:30] that have never really have gone through that process.

[00:45:33] And honestly, through sometimes interviewing, the only type of interviewing you know is

[00:45:38] the interviews that you've gone through.

[00:45:40] Very true.

[00:45:41] And those interviews may not have been the greatest interviews either but that's again,

[00:45:46] we only know what we know.

[00:45:47] And so a lot of companies don't invest in really teaching people like how to I know it sounds

[00:45:53] cheesy but how do you break the ice where it's not like never from.

[00:45:57] Yeah, and corny and tell me something interesting about yourself.

[00:46:00] Nobody needs to answer that question.

[00:46:02] I don't know what do you think is interesting.

[00:46:04] I don't know.

[00:46:05] Yeah, I hate this kind of questions.

[00:46:07] Right.

[00:46:08] And I do too.

[00:46:09] I always hated when we'd have to do like sales calls and role play calls.

[00:46:12] I always hated them because I'm like, y'all are just making up stuff.

[00:46:15] I'm like, just let me be on the phone and let me like if I fumble, I fumble and then

[00:46:20] I'll get better the next call but now we're just random stuff.

[00:46:24] So yeah, sometimes you have to kind of meet the if your interviewer is like kind of monotone

[00:46:32] and is not really like energetic, then you have to kind of maybe raise that a little

[00:46:37] bit.

[00:46:38] I would definitely say in those cases don't go down to that level because it's not going

[00:46:43] to reflect you great from that standpoint where some interviewers are so like, oh, I've

[00:46:49] got to take a lot of notes.

[00:46:50] I got to write down everything you're saying.

[00:46:52] So they may be concentrating on other things.

[00:46:55] And again, not the greatest interviews, but you have to again reflect on the experience.

[00:47:01] And I always just say, okay, if it didn't go well, what maybe didn't happen in the interview

[00:47:07] and was there something that you could do better the next time?

[00:47:10] Because I do think overall we can always be improving.

[00:47:14] We can always be focused on improving ourselves and how we engage with others things of

[00:47:19] that nature.

[00:47:20] And so be realistic and be honest, but also know that there may be other circumstances

[00:47:26] impacting that interview.

[00:47:28] Absolutely.

[00:47:29] Are there any companies that you're aware of that actually teach their people how to

[00:47:32] interview?

[00:47:33] Not off the top of my head.

[00:47:36] I've never heard of one.

[00:47:37] That's why I wanted to ask.

[00:47:39] I've worked with a lot of companies throughout my career.

[00:47:43] There should be.

[00:47:44] I'm thinking they use it as such a vital quote unquote part of the whole onboarding process,

[00:47:51] right?

[00:47:52] But yet what we're discussing here, they don't even invest in their people to have them

[00:47:58] trained to interview properly.

[00:47:59] So how many people are they losing?

[00:48:02] Yeah.

[00:48:03] I will be honest.

[00:48:04] That's a whole that's something I'm really passionate about because it's a whole and

[00:48:09] it's a whole other conversation because it literally, I do think that there's so much

[00:48:14] improvement that could happen in the interview process companies.

[00:48:17] Again, companies will say, oh, here's a list of questions I need you to ask.

[00:48:22] Okay, but are they applicable?

[00:48:25] Am I just asking these questions?

[00:48:26] I mean, then just let the person like here answer these questions.

[00:48:30] You know, like write your answers down.

[00:48:31] I mean, at that point we're interviewing a human here.

[00:48:35] So we need to have that and what are we looking for?

[00:48:38] What are the traits that we're looking for?

[00:48:40] How do you spot them?

[00:48:41] And the same goes, I believe very much so interviewing is a two way street.

[00:48:47] I know candidates don't always feel that way and I know companies don't treat it that way.

[00:48:53] But it is a two way street and companies do need to recognize that and they need to recognize

[00:48:58] the competitive nature that candidates do have options.

[00:49:03] They don't have to choose you and you need to be showing up as your best.

[00:49:08] Not everybody should be interviewing.

[00:49:10] I agree.

[00:49:13] If you don't know the questions that they are asking, then you need to be looking at those

[00:49:18] questions because are they appropriate?

[00:49:21] We could get into what conscious or unconscious biases exist with certain questions and believe

[00:49:28] me.

[00:49:29] I've seen it with hiring managers.

[00:49:30] I've had conversations that hiring managers should never have uttered words to me that they

[00:49:35] have uttered and they are like, oh, you're the recruiter.

[00:49:39] Oh wow.

[00:49:40] I'm still hiring a figure in this process.

[00:49:45] There's so much that goes into it.

[00:49:47] It's a transaction but it's a transaction with a human being and I think we've maybe lost

[00:49:53] sight of that in some regard.

[00:49:55] Yeah, I know that some interviews are conducted with a panel of people and I think

[00:50:00] that causes a lot of anxiety.

[00:50:03] You're not just one on one now but you've got this whole panel.

[00:50:08] Yeah, and in most of those cases, I actually know this will sound weird.

[00:50:12] I actually don't mind the panel per se because then I can kind of like say, okay, I'm going

[00:50:18] to look at you when you're asking me that question that I'm going to look over here when you

[00:50:22] ask, I know where my focus needs to be and I can pull off of that energy one way or the

[00:50:27] other.

[00:50:28] And most of the time I would say in most panels, most panelists are given like three questions

[00:50:34] that they can ask or you're going to ask too and I'm going to ask for it.

[00:50:38] And so it's very structured in that regard.

[00:50:42] So there's a little bit more of a routine.

[00:50:45] It's definitely a more structured interview.

[00:50:47] So you can kind of prepare a little bit knowing going into that situation.

[00:50:53] A lot of times too, if you know who you're interviewing with in those panels, you're going

[00:50:58] to have kind of an idea of the types of questions that they might be asking you.

[00:51:03] So your direct report manager is probably going to be asking more higher level questions.

[00:51:09] Whereas the peer person, the person that you'd be working with will probably want to know,

[00:51:14] well, how do you handle a conflict or how do you handle working with others?

[00:51:18] Things of that nature.

[00:51:20] Maybe you can kind of depending on the position, maybe there's a technical component knowing

[00:51:26] kind of some of those types of questions that are going to come at you.

[00:51:29] Okay.

[00:51:30] Maybe that's a different way to look at it because to me, it sounds like it would be intimidating,

[00:51:35] but maybe it's easier to prepare for because it is more structured.

[00:51:39] I don't know.

[00:51:40] It is a little bit more structured.

[00:51:41] I will say now that we've gone through the pandemic with it and if you're doing it remotely,

[00:51:47] it's just easy because you just look straight at your camera.

[00:51:51] And you just like, okay, I'm talking to all of you.

[00:51:55] And so there is that whereas in person, I think it can feel intimidating sometimes because

[00:52:01] you're on ones again, the structure of making somebody feel comfortable and welcome,

[00:52:07] like the whole thought of you're here and then there's four of you on the side.

[00:52:13] That is not a very welcoming stance.

[00:52:15] Okay.

[00:52:16] It's not.

[00:52:17] So maybe we rethink, are we setting in the corporate boardroom or could we set around a table?

[00:52:23] Like having a round table gives it a very different vibe than you're at the one end and

[00:52:29] we're all at the other end.

[00:52:30] Okay.

[00:52:31] It's like them against you.

[00:52:34] Yeah.

[00:52:35] Right.

[00:52:36] So again, the structure, how we present ourselves and again, I believe that that definitely

[00:52:41] goes both ways.

[00:52:42] Unfortunately, companies just don't see a lot of times AC recruiting.

[00:52:47] They receive HR as an expense and I've been told this many times.

[00:52:52] You know, actually make the company money because those were recruiters.

[00:52:56] We want to spend money to make better things a lot of times.

[00:53:00] But I always would point out yes, but I was responsible for finding that person who's now

[00:53:06] producing X amount of money for the company by being a solid producer, solid manager,

[00:53:12] whatever the role might be.

[00:53:14] And now they're successful.

[00:53:15] They've stayed in that role.

[00:53:17] There's no turnover.

[00:53:18] So unfortunately companies don't necessarily see the value and it ends that somewhere that

[00:53:24] can have a long-term impact on your organization.

[00:53:27] I think it definitely can for sure.

[00:53:30] And to your point, are they even asking questions that are going to guide them to the

[00:53:34] candidate they're hoping to find?

[00:53:37] Because if you're just taking random interview questions, it may not even be leading you

[00:53:42] down the path that you want to go.

[00:53:44] Exactly.

[00:53:45] You may not be asking right questions.

[00:53:47] Right.

[00:53:48] You may be missing the vote when it comes to that.

[00:53:51] And again, those are things that you do need to focus on.

[00:53:54] Right.

[00:53:55] So as we kind of wrap up today, is there anything that we haven't talked about that

[00:53:59] you want to make sure that the listeners here?

[00:54:03] Just give yourself the due diligence of owning the opportunity of exploring career opportunities

[00:54:09] if you're thinking, if you're on the bubble.

[00:54:11] Do some research.

[00:54:12] Don't just assume you're not going to be able to find that opportunity or that it's not

[00:54:18] going to be the right match of money or what's got to be in person will be remote.

[00:54:23] Do yourself the due diligence before you shut the door on yourself and explore what options

[00:54:28] are out there for you.

[00:54:29] So one thing we didn't...

[00:54:31] I just made it as a quick question.

[00:54:33] What's the best way for people to look for those jobs?

[00:54:36] Is it LinkedIn?

[00:54:37] Is it a combination?

[00:54:40] I think it's a combination.

[00:54:42] There's so many...

[00:54:43] There's association websites.

[00:54:45] There's your standard job boards such as LinkedIn, indeed, Glassdoor.

[00:54:51] There's also a lot of up and coming website or job boards too.

[00:54:55] I'm always getting acquainted with new ones and new options and things of that nature.

[00:55:02] And so there's a lot of resources out there.

[00:55:04] And it's also your network too.

[00:55:06] Those trusted people in your network know you're actively seeking be specific.

[00:55:11] Give them what you're specifically looking for, the types of roles and opportunities.

[00:55:15] And then from there, let your network also work for you.

[00:55:19] And see who they might be able to introduce you to.

[00:55:21] Have a wish list of companies that you're interested in, explore their company website,

[00:55:27] set up alerts when job opportunities become available.

[00:55:30] So there's a lot of technology wise that are at our fingertips that can help us with

[00:55:35] our job search.

[00:55:36] That's amazing.

[00:55:37] So if somebody is listening and they say, wow, I really want to reach out to Melanie and

[00:55:42] I want her to help me.

[00:55:43] What's the best way for them to get a hold of you?

[00:55:46] Yeah, so two ways.

[00:55:48] You can find me on LinkedIn, of course, and feel free to leave a connection request with

[00:55:53] a note saying you heard this podcast and would love to connect or you can go directly

[00:55:57] into my website which is findsucceedachieve.com.

[00:56:02] I actually do offer a free career, generally you can download.

[00:56:05] It kind of helps with some of those pre-planning questions that I talked about today.

[00:56:09] They can get you thinking of what you might want to do in your next steps and you can reach

[00:56:13] out to me from there as well.

[00:56:15] That's great.

[00:56:16] Well, thank you for all the information you brought today.

[00:56:18] It has really been fascinating to me.

[00:56:21] I've enjoyed it.

[00:56:22] Oh, thank you.

[00:56:23] I appreciate it.

[00:56:24] I appreciate the opportunity.

[00:56:26] Oh, absolutely.

[00:56:27] Thank you.

[00:56:28] Perfect.

[00:56:29] Bye bye.

[00:56:30] Bye.

[00:56:31] As we wrap up today's episode, I hope Melanie sharing her journey, experience and wisdom

[00:56:35] has helped you in some way.

[00:56:37] I think the main takeaway is if you've been thinking of a career change, then start doing

[00:56:42] some career exploration and don't forget the self-exploration either.

[00:56:47] Where are you financially?

[00:56:48] Where do you need to be?

[00:56:50] What would you love to do in life?

[00:56:52] Would that career fill your needs financially as well as emotionally?

[00:56:56] And if you're really thinking of taking the leap, start preparing for those interview

[00:57:00] questions.

[00:57:01] I also loved how Melanie said that the resume is sort of your roadmap of where you want

[00:57:06] to go, not just where you've been.

[00:57:08] That was a whole new concept for me.

[00:57:11] And most importantly, don't forget to call on Melanie for some expert guidance and all

[00:57:15] of it.

[00:57:16] What stood out to you?

[00:57:17] I'd love to hear from you.

[00:57:19] As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person and with that, I hope you have

[00:57:23] a blessed week, my friend.

[00:57:28] Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess.

[00:57:31] If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend.

[00:57:34] And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite

[00:57:39] pod player.

[00:57:40] If you have any questions or comments, any topic I did you'd like to hear about, or you think

[00:57:45] you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at TheBeautyAndTheMess.com.

[00:57:50] Thanks for listening.