Ep. 159 Success Begins With Leading Yourself with Alan Lazaros

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:33] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. Today's guest is making his second appearance on the show. It's Alan Lazaros, founder and CEO of Next Level University. If you've heard Alan's first episode, you know we spent time exploring his incredible personal journey and his pursuit of fulfillment. But since then, his company has continued to grow and he's now coached thousands of people around the world. So in this conversation, we're taking the discussion in a different direction.

[00:01:01] We dive into leadership, the skill sets that separate successful people from everyone else, and why so many leaders struggle to grow beyond their own limitations, and what it really takes to build a thriving team and a meaningful life. Alan also shares his unique framework for understanding our core wounds and how they influence the way we lead, and why self-awareness is essential for lasting success.

[00:01:23] Whether you're leading a business, a team, your family, or simply trying to become the best version of yourself, I think you'll find some practical wisdom and plenty of encouragement in today's conversation. Hi, I'm Michele Simms, your host. I'm just a regular person who, like so many others, has faced my fair share of messes. Life hasn't always been neat or easy, but it's taught me a lot. And somewhere along the way, I got deeply curious, how do other people make it through their messes and not just survive, but thrive? That started my pursuit.

[00:01:53] I started searching for stories, wisdom, and real strategies, not only for myself, but for anyone looking for a better way forward. Maybe there is a faster way, a softer way, a more human way, and maybe we don't have to figure it out all alone. I believe we grow through shared stories, lived wisdom, and the beautiful mess of being human. And so welcome to the conversation. I'm so glad you're here.

[00:02:15] Please join me for episode 159 of The Beauty in the Mess called Success Begins with Leading Yourself with Alan Lazaros. So without further ado, let's get into it. Hi, Alan. Welcome back to the Beauty and the Mess. I'm so glad to have you with me today. I'm so glad to be back. Thank you for having me, first and foremost. I am very busy. I'm grateful for that. I'm not saying that as a flex.

[00:02:39] I'm grateful to be here, and I try really hard to remember what it was like 11 years ago when I wanted to speak into other people's lives, and it was crickets. So now that I'm busier, I'm very grateful. So thank you for having me. Absolutely. I appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to sit with us and share some wisdom with us. So before we begin, I want to remind our listeners that you were with us on episode 128.

[00:03:06] So if they want to go back and hear your backstory, because we did talk in depth about your personal life. And then we also talked about fulfillment. So I just wanted to remind them that that's there if they want to refer back to it. And before we begin today, I just want to refresh them that you are a coach, a trainer, a podcaster, an entrepreneur. You co-founded the Next Level University, among many, many other things. But I just wanted to give them a little bit of background as we move into today.

[00:03:33] So like I mentioned before we went on air, last time we kind of focused on fulfillment. And this time I wanted to focus on leadership and success. And when you were here last time, the Next Level University was growing, of course. But to my knowledge, from what I've read, you've doubled your podcast catalog. I think you've launched new businesses. Is that the case? Not a new company. How long has it been since you and I have spoken? I think it was November of last year. Yeah, no.

[00:04:02] So same company. Okay. We did start Business Growth University and Podcast Growth University, which we since shut those down because we basically had 24 departments and we spread ourselves too thin. And we're doing the find the sweet spot in terms of how many products and services you focus on. And sort of memorable example of this is when Steve Jobs went back to Apple and he sliced most of the SKUs

[00:04:30] and he had them just focus on retail, the iMac, the iPhone, and the iPod. And so there's no new businesses. If anything, we've actually condensed and consolidated, which actually has proven much better for not only my focus and ability to focus, but also success-wise too. We've doubled down on the important things. Yeah, basically. That's awesome.

[00:04:55] Yeah, I wanted to ask you, like, what has running this company, and just hearing you speak about it getting almost too much to handle, but how has running this company taught you things that you didn't even know before? 11 years ago, I started Alan Lazaros LLC, what you'll never learn in school but desperately need to know. And I wanted to bring personal development and social development and professional development to the masses

[00:05:22] because I was a straight-A student, and we didn't learn a lot about that stuff. And so from 11 years ago to now, we now have a 25-person team. We have 13 departments. We used to have 24, so we consolidated. The biggest thing I would say is the patterns of people. So I've done 7,300 coaching sessions now. Wow. Suddenly. And thank you.

[00:05:49] So the cool part about it, more than anything, is in those 7,300 hours, it's people all over the world. And you just notice these certain common patterns. And so the biggest thing that I've noticed is I think, and I know we want to talk about this today, is the skills that everyone needs if they want to be really successful.

[00:06:15] And one of the ones that jumped off the page actually today, I was with a client named Sasha, and she has reached a part in her business where she has hit sort of a ceiling of what she can do. So there's 168 hours in a week. If you sleep 8, that leaves 112 left per week, 112 waking hours. Of those 112 waking hours, if you have a full-time job, 40 hours, you still have 72 left. So what are you doing in nights and weekends and that kind of thing? Now, that doesn't include commuting or showering or any of that stuff,

[00:06:44] but my point is that Sasha has reached a point where she can no longer do any more with her current amount of time without burning out, so she needs to learn to lead. And that's what I know you and I want to talk about here, which is a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of people reach a certain level of success, and there's a ceiling there unless you learn how to lead. Yeah, you can automate, obviously AI, stuff like that, but you need to learn how to lead people.

[00:07:11] And leading people is the hardest thing on planet Earth, hands down. It is unbelievably atrociously difficult. But if you can learn how to do it through massive pain and failure, you really can accomplish amazing things. Because quite frankly, and this is the saying a lot of people say, and I have my caveat to it, so I don't want you to latch on to the first part. Everyone's heard no one achieves anything great alone. Yes. Okay, true.

[00:07:36] However, one great team member, one great leader can make a great team. One Michael Jordan, one Tom Brady, one Serena Williams, one Michael Phelps. And again, one person can set the standard and set the pace and lead by example. So assuming you actually lead by example and you're not just in your ivory tower, you can change not only the success of the company, but it can ripple outward to the world.

[00:08:04] If you touch a thousand people who touch a thousand people who touch a thousand people, that's a billion. So I think it's very empowering to realize that if you learn how to lead, which is basically impacting other people in a positive, constructive way, you can achieve pretty much within reason, whatever level of success that you want. But that's a huge barrier. And leadership, I could talk. I mean, leadership is still, I'm only 37. I'm still young. But like leadership is the game. Yeah.

[00:08:32] Do you think everyone is capable of learning how to lead? Because I see a lot of a lack of leadership in the organization I work in. And it's just, and I'm thinking, is there hope for this? Because people just don't take the steering wheel, so to speak. They just don't. I don't understand it. Well, so there's two ways to view that in my analysis. There's this, it's a Napoleon Bonaparte quote.

[00:09:02] And he said, there are no bad soldiers under a great general. And it's just a famous quote. I don't necessarily like Napoleon. I don't think he was a very nice guy. But what I will say is he had both strong leadership qualities and very horrible ones. And on one side of the coin, there are no bad soldiers under a great general.

[00:09:24] If the general, the leader in this metaphor, it's a metaphor, is leading by example and catalyzing growth and educating, inspiring, motivating. However, the other side of that coin is, no, not everyone's going to be a great leader. And not everyone wants to be a great leader. And not everyone has the humility, courage, and vulnerability to be a great leader. And quite frankly, not everyone wants to go through the massive pain, failure, and suffering that is required to actually become a great leader.

[00:09:53] Because you can, I have a dozen leadership books, if not, I probably have 50 plus leadership books. But one of them is called The Paradox of Leadership, which is really cool. But it's by my bedside. Learning about leadership is not how you learn leadership. Studying leadership will help you. But it's the silence between the notes that makes the music, which is in between the notes are painful. The notes are failing forward.

[00:10:21] The notes are trying to hire someone. The notes are firing someone. And then the silence between the notes is contemplation, which is where you study and you go back to the drawing board and you go, what was I missing there? And so, number one, to answer your question, not everyone is going to be a leader. I think everyone has the potential to be a leader. However, not everyone has the potential to be the same level of leader. Right, right. I can see that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:10:50] So how do, as a leader, how do you take that failure and not be crushed by it, but actually help yourself learn from it and move on? Because a lot of people, I don't know if it shakes confidence. I mean, I know it does shake confidence. But to the point that they can't recover, how do you train yourself to just use it as a lesson and go on? Is that part of the leadership training, so to speak?

[00:11:15] So I've identified, and this is my own sort of unique framework, and it's built on a bunch of different internal family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy, all the different modalities that I've learned. And personality tests like Hexaco and Disq and all this stuff. So because I have 7,300 calls with people all over the world, 39 clients currently, but hundreds over the years.

[00:11:41] I've created my own pre-assessment before I coach someone. Okay. And to answer your question, essentially everyone has a core wound. It's the way I frame it. Yeah, in total agreement, yeah. Okay, okay. So there's three main core wounds that I use to assess someone before I coach them.

[00:12:08] And I'll give you them high level, but I don't want anyone to kind of overly latch onto this, okay, because this is my own modality, my own framework. So the first core wound is defective. Essentially, what the defective core wound means, it means you have low self-belief or low self-efficacy, and you have the belief unconsciously and subconsciously of I'm not capable enough, I'm not competent enough, I'm not good enough at things.

[00:12:38] I don't believe in myself. That's the main one. So if that's the case, and that is the majority of the population statistically, from what I can tell, if that's the case, you probably do fear failure. You fear embarrassment. You never want to look bad. You are deeply playing not to lose instead of playing to win. You struggle behind the scenes, but in public, you act very confident. And that's an archetype. Right.

[00:13:06] You usually have very good social skills, and you usually are pretty good at getting along with people. And statistically speaking, you fall in the center of most bell curves. So you have a pretty strong sense of belonging. Everybody likes you at the barbecue. You're not a huge mirror. Okay? That's, you get along with people very well. You're very nice and nice, but you tend to stay on the surface. Okay? So that's the defective core wound.

[00:13:26] If you have a defective core wound, it's going to be very hard for you to be a great leader because you're going to have to overcome your fear of embarrassment or being found out or leading people that are more competent than you, essentially. And usually, people can sense when they're being led by someone who is full of shit. And the idea here is the 10s lead the 9s, the 9s lead the 8s, the 8s lead the 7s.

[00:13:56] I think the champagne tower metaphor is really good for this, which is why no one takes me seriously because I look 15. But at the end of the day, if you are a level 10 leader, a 9 will recognize that and follow you. But there's a lot of people who are defective core wound who pretend to be 10s that are actually 3s. Okay. And we all know someone like that who is, like, actually broke, but they drive a nice car.

[00:14:23] They don't really know how to earn wealth themselves, but they act wealthy. And those people usually are sucky leaders, in my honest opinion. And they rarely lead by example behind the scenes. So it's who you are and what you are when no one's watching that matters most as a leader. But these people don't believe in themselves behind the scenes. So they have to work on that. And so defective core wound is the hardest to be a leader, in my opinion. Oh, wow. And that's the majority of people. Wow. Yeah. Yep. Now, this next one is very challenging, too.

[00:14:52] Each core wound has a strength and a weakness. So the strength of the defective core wound is they're excellent at perception and status. They're very good at getting people to believe they're competent, even though they're not. And they understand the social game very well. All right. The weakness is they don't believe in themselves, and they're codependent on others for success. Okay. Okay. The next core wound is the one that I think great leaders tend to be.

[00:15:21] And the reason why is they have this core wound of unlovable. So the unlovable core wound, assuming you're not healed. And by the way, all three of these core wounds can be healed and empowered. Okay. Okay. So no one's stuck in their core wound. All right.

[00:15:37] All right.

[00:16:06] So you're not going to be able to do that. You're not going to be able to do that. You're not going to be able to do that. These are the people that are beasts behind the scenes. A lot of women do a lot of work behind the scenes, but they don't flaunt it. So they don't get the credit they're deserved because of all the sexism in the world and all that crap. And I use that as a metaphor because I think a lot of people know that there are so many amazing women in the world doing amazing work, but sometimes they don't get the credit they deserve. Right. And that's the unlovable core wound.

[00:16:36] And I do think statistically speaking from what I can see, the unlovable core wound tends to be more women and the defective core wound tends to be more men. And I don't know whether that's biological or cultural or both. It's probably both. But what I will say is the unlovable core wound is mine, in case you couldn't tell in my energy. And essentially the unlovable is afraid to shine. The unlovable is a beast in private, just a beast.

[00:17:06] But in public, they shrink because they don't want to get attacked. Okay. And they don't want the defectives to throw rocks, essentially. And so I always say rocks go up, compliments go down. And usually when you shine, the joking metaphor I give, and I only use it because everybody knows of her anyways, I say people love Beyonce, but what do you think Destiny's Child thinks of her? Right? Right. So people laugh because it's like, oh, the world can love you from afar,

[00:17:33] but the inner circle sometimes hates you if you rise above the herd. And so the unlovable basically wants unconditional love, but never gets it. And they feel more tolerated than celebrated. But if they can overcome that, they can be unbelievable leaders just because they believe in themselves so much. These are the visionaries. Like you actually do believe in yourself and you really can lead by example. So I think that unlovables can be the best leaders on earth, but we have to overcome our fear.

[00:18:03] We're usually cowards. We're social cowards. So defectives don't believe in themselves and they need to basically humble themselves and start small and stop playing the social perception game. Unlovables are just cowards. Like we are such social cowards. We don't like to tell people what we really think. We are tiptoeing around everyone else's emotions all the time. And we don't want to come off as an a-hole. So we basically never get anyone's respect because we're never willing to call anyone out.

[00:18:32] So even though we are leading by example and we have a lot of ground to stand on, we don't have the courage to stand that ground. And that's what I've had to overcome. And that's why it's been so hard to be a leader. Because I would basically like work harder than everyone else and then give everyone else the credit. And then when they wouldn't work, I wouldn't have the courage to call them out. And I've had to flip that script. It's been really hard. It's been really hard. I'm sure. Yeah. Even sharing all this is hard, actually. From a courage perspective, I already think all this behind the scenes

[00:19:02] and I'm totally fine with it. When I share it publicly, that's the fear. So unlovables are beasts in private, scared in public. Defectives are beasts in public, in perception. I call them puffer fish. They pretend to be strong. But in private, they're actually scared and helpless. Okay. The last one is unwanted. Defective, unlovable, unwanted. And again, this is just my framework. No one latched too far onto this. Just my personal framework. So the unwanted is sitting there.

[00:19:30] So typically the defective has low self-belief, high inflated self-worth. The unlovable, the hero, has high self-belief and low self-worth. So they're a martyr trying to save everyone, basically, and give everyone else the credit. And then the unwanted is sitting there looking at both of these going, this is silly. So usually they have medium self-belief and medium self-worth. And these unwanted are kind of like on their own island and they're very observant. They accept everyone. They're super inclusive.

[00:20:01] Usually it's the unlovables and the defectives that are constantly drama and fighting and hurting each other. But unwanted just see this and they're like, yo, I'm going to opt out. I'm going to be fully unapologetically me, but I'm not letting anyone into my heart at all. I'm just going to put up these giant glass walls. You can see through them, but you're not getting in. And so the way I say it is defectives will do anything for significance. Unlovables will lower their boundaries and let you into their castle for love.

[00:20:29] And unwanted are authentic as hell, but they won't let you into their castle. They have these huge glass walls up. So defectives are dependent on others for success. Unlovables tend to be codependent because they want to be needed. And then unwanted are hyper independent. And they actually don't work that well on teams because they're on their own island. They don't collaborate that well.

[00:20:56] Now the empowered alternative, which is what I was trying to get to this whole time, is interdependence. Dependent is I need you to be successful. That's defective. Codependent is I want you to rely on me so that we can have a relationship. And I'm going to pretend you're just as good as me so that we can keep coexisting together. That's the unlovable. The unwanted is I don't need you. You don't need me. We don't want to rely on each other. We're going to be hyper independent.

[00:21:22] And none of those three core wounds, unless they heal and become empowered, can actually lead. And so basically the defective needs to humble themselves and realize they're not that great and that they are average and be okay with that and actually start working on themselves. The unlovable needs to wake up and stop being such a coward and actually start leaning into their greatness.

[00:21:46] And the unwanted needs to realize that they cannot succeed on their own and that interdependence is the only way. And interdependent is I don't need you, but I do want you. And so my business partner, Kev, I sat him down not two or three years ago and we said, brother, like we've created a codependent relationship. He was defective. I was unlovable. We didn't know it, but now it's like, I have to do this. I want to know if you want to come with me. I have to do this with or without you.

[00:22:13] I hope it's with you, but I'm doing it with or without you. And that took a ton of courage for me. And now our relationship is better than it's ever been because we got rid of this. I need you. You need me. He needs me for success. I need him for companionship or love because he was kind of one of my last remaining friends. And basically now it's, we don't need each other. We just want, we'd rather do this together than apart. See how much different that is energetically. Yeah, I can. It's by choice now.

[00:22:42] Whereas before it's out of scarcity. So what has happened, Kevin, as a partner? How long have you guys been partners now? Nine years. Nine years. Business partners. Right. Got to specify. No, no, it's okay. It's okay. And the clarity though. Yeah. 21st century. We got to specify. You know. How much has he taught you about, like when you see people wanting to go into business and they're going to partner with somebody.

[00:23:09] Do you sit down with the two partners and watch the dynamics between the two? Yeah. Or I mean, because that's going to set you up for success or failure right there, isn't it? What I look for is humility, courage, and vulnerability. I call it the triad of transformation. And I don't think any relationship can flourish without those three. And each core wound struggles with one of the three. So the defective struggles with humility. The thing is, they don't look like they do. Right.

[00:23:35] There's a difference between false front modesty and inward humility. Like a lot of people think I'm arrogant. I get it. But inward humility is like, I told this to Kev once. I said, brother, if I was arrogant, why would I work seven days a week? Why would I read books every day? Like arrogance means I'm going to hope it all works out and I'm not even going to work that hard.

[00:23:58] And like the unlovables tend to be inwardly humble, but we come off arrogant because we're scared to actually say what we really think. So we come off with this weird like energy of no, no, no, I'm great. It's great. And so I realized that I appear arrogant. But if you were to have a camera on me behind the scenes, my actions are very humble. And again, it's like you're not allowed to say that. So whatever. My point is humility, courage, and vulnerability is what we all need.

[00:24:25] So if I sat down business partners and I saw a lack of humility, courage, and vulnerability, I would try to identify their core wounds. The defectives need humility. The unlovables need social courage. And the unwanted need vulnerability. But here's the problem. From what I've seen from the unwanted is what appears vulnerable to the unlovables and defectives isn't actually vulnerable to the unwanted. Oh, wow.

[00:24:52] The way I see it is the unwanted have commitment issues, quote unquote. They love ideas. They love ideas. And they love dabbling. They do a lot of things really well. But you can't really be at the top of any industry or any sport or anything while dabbling. Right. Yeah, focus. As much as people want to believe that you can. Yeah, you have to be extremely focused.

[00:25:20] And so defectives can get to the top of the industry through perception and status and, yeah, sometimes manipulation. Everyone can think of somebody who's done that. And then unlovables tend to get to the top by competence hierarchies and getting better and better and better and eventually having a ton of courage and actually hopefully having some allies that help them along the way. But unwanted, they struggle a lot because they don't really care that much about success. It's been fascinating for me.

[00:25:50] They don't really care that much. They can lead. They just don't really care. They kind of want to do their own thing. But, yeah, so humility, courage, and vulnerability, what I call the triad of transformation. Humility is an accurate understanding of your own importance. Courage is feel the fear and do it anyway. Say it anyway if you're an unlovable because it's not doing things that scares unlovables. It's saying what you really think, saying what you really believe. That's very scary for an unlovable.

[00:26:16] And then the unwanted, they feel very vulnerable when they're needed or when they need others. And they want to be hyper-independent and self-reliant. And it's very vulnerable to trust other people. That's interesting. I said do you see many people that fall kind of in between these three? All the time. Okay. Yeah, of course. We all have all three, but we have one big one. Okay. But there's one-two-threes and three-two-ones, and there's a whole sort of

[00:26:46] system that I've created that helps me understand. I know who I cannot coach. And I know who I adore coaching. And everyone in between based on their codes. So if it's defective one, unlovable two, unwanted three, there's one-two-threes, there's three-two-ones, there's three-two-ones, three-one-twos. Okay. And all the different, there's six combinations essentially. And then it gets deeper and there's percentages. Wow. What I've found for me, I'm going to create a whole sort of framework and eventually like

[00:27:15] a textbook about this. But for me, I'm extremely the unlovable core wound. So I'm like 99% unlovable, which is very extreme. Usually people land like 60-30-10 or 40-30-20. 40-30-30. 40-30-30. In this case, it'd be 40-31-29 because I don't like to have anyone with equal core wounds. I think the syntax matters. But I digress. That's much more complex.

[00:27:47] And basically at my company, we need to know your number one core wound. We need to know your syntax, like your code. And then we need to know what your trauma response is to the trigger of that core wound. Otherwise, I won't coach you because back to the leadership conversation, there have been too many people in the past that I've tried to coach.

[00:28:13] And it was destructive for me and my company because I didn't understand that they were going to be triggered by me essentially. Oh, one more caveat too. Women trigger women and men trigger men when it comes to comparison. So, for example, if you don't believe in yourself and I do believe in myself a lot, you'll sense that. And if you were a man, you'd be more triggered. You and I both believe in ourselves and you're also a woman.

[00:28:43] So, but that's what I've noticed. And I think intuitively we all know this. Like I've literally witnessed my beautiful girlfriend and future wife, like a woman will treat me wonderfully and then treat her horribly like right five minutes later. And some of that is obviously like, I know I'm a man, she's a woman and vice versa with guys. Like she's a beautiful woman. So, of course, they're going to be nice to her. But it's more than that. It's deeper than that. And if you want to be a leader, you have to understand who triggers who on your team.

[00:29:11] I have team members that trigger the hell out of each other. And luckily, emotional maturity, humility, courage, and vulnerability has to be at the epicenter. If you want a growing, thriving community where the attacking each other and triggering each other and one bad apple will destroy the whole bushel is absolutely true. And you have to eliminate the bad apple immediately. And there's no way around that. To think otherwise is naive and it's time to grow up. And I had to learn that the hard way.

[00:29:41] So, I just had a thought. When you're hiring someone, do you do this whole evaluation and then look at how they would fit with the rest of the team? Is that part of it? 100%. Wow. Yep. I actually have an acronym if you're curious of who I will never hire. Sure. I call it Unmedzi. And as a matter of fact, when I first got on here, you and I haven't talked in a year, I reassessed this immediately in you. First of all, I was a little bit late.

[00:30:11] Yeah, I was a little bit late and you were super respectful and kind. That tells me a lot about you. Oh. Because if you were arrogant and entitled, you'd be very mad at me because I've disrespected you and your time is more valuable than that and all that stuff, even though I'm trying to be here and serve. Right. So it would tell me a lot about you if you were very unjustly unkind to me. Now, some of it would have been justified because I was late and I take ownership for that. When I tell you the acronym, you'll understand you passed the test really quickly.

[00:30:41] So Unmedzi is people. I will never associate with these people ever again if they have a high Unmedzi score. I don't care about your background or your country or your race or nationality. That is not what this is. Right. This is character traits. So the first one is unstable. So Unmedzi, U-N-M-E-D-S-A-I. Unstable, naive, manipulative, entitled, delusional, significance-driven, arrogant, and immature.

[00:31:09] So I want everyone out there to imagine working closely with someone who's unstable, naive, manipulative, entitled, delusional, significance, arrogant, and immature. You cannot win with that person. I can believe that. So I created this acronym to protect myself from myself because I really do want to help everyone. But I shouldn't and I cannot. And it was time for me to grow up because it was hurting me, my company, and my family.

[00:31:35] So now I assess and people ask like, well, how do you know if I'm immature? It's like there are tells. There are tells. And if you have a birthday week, you are significance-driven. Okay. How come you get a whole month? The rest of us only get one day. Right. So there are tells and you have to practice learning what the tells are. One of the tells that you were a low on MedZEI score was how respectful and kind you were to me, even though I was late. Okay. That's very interesting.

[00:32:04] So do you kind of assess everybody you meet on a high level? Always. You do. Always. It's just part of how you're programmed. It's part of my Alan version 3.7. Alan version 2.7. It doesn't matter who you are. I think you're the best. And we're going to get along just fine until I realize later that this is horrible and I don't know what's wrong and what's the deal and why do I hate myself? Well, bleeders and feeders, right?

[00:32:32] The UnMedsEye score helps me stay away from bleeders. People who bleed you and don't feed you and people who really don't have the capacity or the capability to support your goals and dreams because deep down they are insecure and scarce and they want to see you lose. Or at least they don't want to see you leave and maybe you have to leave in order to grow. Wow. I do have a question on the unlovables. Take yourself, for example. How do you believe in yourself highly but yet you say they're cowards?

[00:33:01] Because those seem counterintuitive to me. Like I always feel like someone's social cowards. Right. I know what you're saying and I can visualize it, but you would think that that person would just naturally, because they believe in themselves, have no problem being out there in a social world. So here's what you're missing. They believe in themselves and their own capabilities. They don't believe in their ability to get others to like them. Okay.

[00:33:28] So Kevin and I, if we both go to give a speech, and we've both worked on ourselves and I consider Kevin a healed defective. Right. And I consider myself a semi-healed unlovable. And you're never fully healed. You're never done, right? Oh, I'm perfect now. Like, no. But if we both give the same speech, he's worried he's going to suck and not add any value. I'm not worried about that at all. But he knows everyone's going to like him. Oh, wow.

[00:33:57] I know I'm going to add massive value if you listen. But if you said, Kev, you have to get everyone in this room to like you and laugh, he'd be like, no problem. If I said, Kev, you have to get everyone to transform their life based on what you say, he'd be like, um, now vice versa. Alan, you have to add massive value and help reach inside and help them reach their full potential. Done. Let's go.

[00:34:25] Alan, you have to get everyone to like you. That is literally impossible. Right. Impossible. So the unlovable can't. They have social cowardice behind the scenes. They're not cowardly at all. They're extremely courageous behind the scenes with their actions. Right. They're very cowardly in public. Right.

[00:34:49] I mean, I can, I relate to that one the most, just thinking on my own because I work myself to death behind the scenes, but I won't stick up for myself, you know, and people will take my ideas and say they're theirs. And I, inside it, it kind of infuriates you, but I don't say anything. And then I get upset with myself for not saying something. So the unlovable, what is ironic about us, and I do think that's probably your core wound too.

[00:35:18] And I sized that up before we even talked, before we talked about the core wounds at the beginning. Right. What is unfortunately true is that because you don't stand up for yourself, people don't respect you as much as they could or would. We are trying to get liked and it's never going to work. Right. If you're unlovable, you don't even get why people don't like you. It's like, I just, people just don't like me. They poison like groups. She villainizes me and he villainized. And it's just like, I don't understand.

[00:35:47] Like, I'm trying to help kids. Like, I'm a good person. Why do I keep getting this? Well, the truth is you're being walked on because they don't respect you and they know you're not going to stand up for yourself. It's an energy. So let me ask. Unlovable's. Yeah, good. Good. I was just going to say, so why on a rare occasion when you do speak up for yourself, why do you feel worse? Because you've been conditioned to believe you should feel bad for sharing your truth.

[00:36:17] Okay. So most likely, and again, I'm just high level here. Yeah. Most unlovables grew up with a deeply defective individual who was extremely abusive in some way. It could be physical, mental, emotional. But if you grew up with a caregiver who was extremely defective, they can't take a lick of feedback about their own behavior. And you as a kid probably tried to tell them the truth about what you really think about their behavior and their abuses.

[00:36:47] And you usually got abused more. So you learned to not share what you really think. And other people can sense that on you. I used to walk around with a bully me on my back without even knowing it. Oh. Because I just was so abused growing up in so many ways. And it's an energy. People can sense it. They can sense they can get away with it. And as you become more and more empowered, you hold a different energy. And people know they can't F with you. Right.

[00:37:14] Like now if you attack me, you know I'm going to defend myself. People can sense, especially predators, can sense when you're not going to defend yourself. Right. There's been a few instances here lately that I've gotten frustrated enough that I have spoken up for myself. And the shock on people, you know, it's like, wow, she said something. But I think you hit a level where your tolerance is just not there anymore. And I'm not rude. I'm not belligerent.

[00:37:43] I don't try to miscreate. Try to be as respectful as possible. Absolutely. Yeah. And you try to be so accepting and loving. And you're giving what you wish you had. Right. Yeah. Right. You support everyone's goals. Right. You want to see them win regardless of yourself. You tolerate their imperfections. Like that's all you've ever wanted. Exactly. And we are all giving what we wish we had. And that's what the unlovable way is. You want to see everyone win.

[00:38:11] And you feel comfortable when people are ahead of you. So you actually help them get ahead of you so that you can be in your comfort zone. Defectives are uncomfortable when other people are better than them. Unlovables are comfortable as second. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's why they're the best leaders because they don't want to be. They want someone else to be the front runner. That's interesting. Because rocks go up and compliments go down. So you want to be number two. You don't want to be number one. You will be number one if you have to. Right. But you don't really want to.

[00:38:38] And you certainly don't want what comes with that, which is having your heart ripped out repeatedly by people that supposedly love you. But the other thing, too, that's fascinating is when you are really significant and like I'll share this, too. The bell curve is very important. And if you know the bell curve, let's say there's a thousand random people on the globe. A bell curve is the very top and the very bottom is smaller and the average is in the middle. Right. Because unlovables tend to be at the high end of the bell curve.

[00:39:08] So we want to fit in. Because we don't. And defectives tend to be in the center of the bell curve. They already fit in. So they want to stand out. So they're fighting for significance. Unlovables already have that. We're fighting for fitting in. Oh, wow. That's interesting. And that's why we're cowards. We're trying to fit in. Right. But what we need to do is lean into who we are and what we are and actually stand out and actually lead. Right.

[00:39:36] But telling people what we really think and what we really believe is very scary because we aren't one of the masses and we know it. And the masses are safety. Right. Very true. It feels unsafe when you're. Yeah, it feels unsafe when you're on your own. Yeah. You're not on your own. You just feel like you are because you never speak up enough for other unlovables to go. Oh, yeah, that's very interesting. How long did it take you to develop this framework? Yeah. 34 years. Oh, wow.

[00:40:06] Okay. 34 years of massive pain and failure and suffering. I just didn't understand because I was an engineer. Right. And I was like. I thought when I became a better person, people would like me more. Oh. Oh. Not even a little bit true. Wow. I got in a car accident at 26. I know we talked about this in the last episode and it was like, okay, Alan, you've done this thing wrong. It's time to turn it around.

[00:40:36] You get one life. Like you got to reach your full potential. And I started personal development, self-improvement, personal growth. And I thought when I became a better man, people would like me more. That is alarmingly untrue. What are you calling a better man? I mean, what's your definition? More humble, more courageous, more vulnerable, more intelligent, more capable, more competent,

[00:40:59] more confident, more heart-driven, more potential, more virtue, more quit drinking, quit all vices, work on yourself every day, habits, tracking, metrics, KPIs, performance, goals, dreams, helping others build, build, build. No, that is not what people like. It's what people aspire to from a distance. Right.

[00:41:28] But no, I don't have any remaining friends, playfully. A lot of that's by choice. A lot of that's by choice. But the truth of the matter is the more you shine, the more that people from afar will see that as inspiration and hope and hopefully motivation to live a better life. But the people very close to you, it will be a spotlight shining down on their missed opportunity. Oh, wow.

[00:41:55] And the defective core wound doesn't know how to handle that. So they attack. Or they abandon. Or they attack and then abandon. Which we've all had happen. Right. Right. The unlovable's deepest fear is outgrowing everyone they love. Do they grow it? And the reason they're going to outgrow everyone they love is because they believe in themselves and the people they love don't. And that's why we are the best at supporting others. If you want someone to believe in you, you find it unlovable. We believe in you more than you believe in you. And then we fall in love with your potential and then we get devastated when you never reach

[00:42:25] it. Yeah. Right. And then they become a coach and start a company. I'm joking. It's interesting because before our conversation today, if you would have asked me, do you believe in yourself? I'd say no. You know, I don't. But as I'm listening to you talk, I know in my heart that I can do whatever I need to do and I will do whatever I need to do. And I'm capable. But you can't say that out loud. I can't. Yeah. Yeah. So people can tell. And that is not uncommon.

[00:42:56] Unlovables believe in themselves a ton, but they never talk about it. Right. But I mean, I didn't even realize it because my instinct would have been to say, no, I don't. And because it's a low, it's a low self worth problem. Helps you fit in. Yeah. And it's, but I know I can, you know, I've got degrees on my wall. I've got all kinds of stuff. I know I can do whatever I need to do. I've been through hard things, but yeah. Scary saying that, isn't it? It is. Takes tremendous courage.

[00:43:24] But to your point at my workplace, I couldn't say that. No, I wouldn't. Yeah. Well, if you do, people will see you differently. And what will be interesting is that's how you will find out who really supports you. Right. Right. Because if you have to lessen yourself to be in relationship to someone, that's a manufactured relationship that will go away the moment you shine. Right.

[00:43:52] And the truth is we are creating unlovables accidentally create codependent relationships. There's a book called Codependent No More. And basically what you do is you shrink yourself to their level so they feel comfortable. When in reality, you're way smarter than they are. You're way more capable than they are. Most of the ideas are yours. You're actually dragging them up a mountain. They don't want to climb. And when you actually do shine, they get very insecure. And usually that destroys the relationship. So defectives will do anything for significance and success.

[00:44:21] Unlovables will do anything for companionship and unconditional love. And the unwanted will do anything for freedom and autonomy. And none of us, we're all in sort of our own doom loop. So unlovables doom loop is we shrink to try to create relationship and then it's unsustainable because it's not based on who we really are. Right. Because eventually the truth is going to come out. And when it does, it's going to break the relationship because it was never authentic to begin with.

[00:44:47] So all of us are unconsciously doing this based on belonging theory because we're all tribal. Human beings are tribal. So the defectives are inflating to fit in. We're deflating to fit in. And then the unwanted are like, screw that. So if you're by allowing yourself to be who you truly are, you decrease the relationships around you just automatically. But yet your core wound tells you that you seek unconditional love, but now you're shrinking

[00:45:16] the relationships around you. How does that dynamic play out? Well, so you're manufacturing conditional love. Okay. Right. Because conditional love is safer. So if you shrink and you create a manufactured sort of relationship that's based on a lesser version of you, and it's based on a finite moment too, because if you believe in yourself, you're going to outgrow that. And if you're with someone who doesn't believe in themselves, this is going to happen whether you like it or not. Right.

[00:45:45] One year, five years, 10 years, 15 years. I mean, picture someone in high school. I have someone I'm thinking of who didn't believe in himself almost at all, deep down. Right. Deep down. And what are the chances he and I are going to be buddies 25 years from now when all I've ever done is try to get better? Right. And he didn't believe in himself. So why would he? And so the thing that happens is you basically create this manufactured relationship. You shrink to try to make it work.

[00:46:11] But over time, you don't love your life and you don't love yourself because unlovables don't like their life if they're not growing. If they're not expanding, if they're not improving. Oh, we're obsessed with it. Yeah. We're obsessed. Unlovables are obsessed with getting better. Obsessed. But that's not cool. So we hide in our offices and read at night. And if you want to know if you're an unlovable, people say, why do you think so much?

[00:46:39] And all we can think, we don't say it, but all we can think is, why don't you ever think? Yeah. Right? Why don't you think more? And it's like, why do you work so hard? And we're thinking, we don't say it because we're cowards, but we're thinking, why are you so lazy? Like, the truth is, we just believe in ourselves a lot. And if you believed in yourself as much as we did, you'd work as hard as we do and you'd have as big of goals as we do. And you would think as much as we do. And so hopefully this is making a lot of sense.

[00:47:08] And I don't want to pick on any core wound because at the end of the day, all of us are born a certain person. And then we develop a core wound. And if you've seen Inside Out 1 or Inside Out 2, the Pixar movies. Yeah. This is, you've seen it? Yeah. The identity tree in the second one. Mm-hmm. That's what this is. Okay. That's the best manifestation I can think of that people can relate to where it's like the identity tree in Inside Out 2. She's not good enough. That's defective. Right.

[00:47:37] And she starts treating her friends like crap, the unlovables, to try to be one of the popular kids. And she dyes her hair and wants to, I have to make three goals in order to play hockey. If you've not seen the movie, you don't know what I'm talking about. But if you've seen the movie, that's a defective core wound. And then eventually she cries it out, emotional flooding happens. And then she rips out the old tree of anxiety and puts in the new one of, I'm not good enough and I'm likable and I'm a good person. And so basically her friends who forgive her, at the end of the movie, her friends, she says, I'm sorry after the panic attack. Right.

[00:48:07] And then her friends, they put, you know, besties again and they put their hands together. Those are the unlovables. And when I saw the movie, I was like, no, don't forgive her. She's going to do it again next year in college, right? Or in high school or whatever. And I'm being playful, but the truth is, is her craving of significance with the popular girls on the hockey team made her treat her friends horribly. And every unlovable relates so deeply to that. And that's why they used defective.

[00:48:36] Actually, they didn't use defective. It's not their term. Right. But they consulted with internal family systems people. It's called an exile for that movie. And they used the statistically high one because most people deep down have, I'm not good enough. Unlovables don't have that. We have, I'm more than capable enough, but why doesn't anyone like me? That kind of thing. I would have. Yeah. Like I said, though, I would have identified with the, I'm not good enough.

[00:49:03] But when I think about it, I feel like I have that feeling, but yet I know I'm capable. So it's a weird dynamic, I guess. Not good enough for love or not good enough to succeed. Maybe that's the truth right there. Yeah. Yeah. Unlovables is not good enough for love. Yeah. We have not good enough for love. We don't have not good enough to succeed. Literally, like you're not allowed to say this, but it's like, why is it so weird to say I believe in myself a ton? Anyone who's an unlovable is like, no, no, no, you can't say that.

[00:49:34] You can't say that. You're not allowed to say that. Yeah. I don't think I come off as arrogant and would never want to be arrogant. I never want to think I'm better than anybody else. I just know that if I had to get something done, I would find a way to get it done. You know what? Or if I really, really wanted to do it, I would get it done. Yeah. Whenever I ask a defective, if they think I'm arrogant, they're like, yeah, I mean, you come off arrogant. Whenever I ask an unlovable, they're like, you don't come off arrogant at all.

[00:50:03] Yeah, you don't come off arrogant. I mean, yeah. It's all our perceptions are faced. Yeah, I knew that before we had this conversation. But if anyone defective is listening and I'm triggering them a lot, for sure, of course, because they're thinking to themselves, well, what does that mean about me? Right. Because I thought everyone struggles with self-doubt. And now they know that some people don't. Some people don't have a lot of self-doubt. Some people have no self-doubt, actually. I can name some of them.

[00:50:33] Michael Phelps. Kobe Bryant. Michael Jordan. Serena Williams. I can keep going. Some people don't have self-doubt. They don't say it out loud. But they don't have self-doubt. What they do have doubt about is whether or not they're going to be unconditionally loved. Do you think on some level that's because the unlovable had to depend on themselves so they know that they're capable? Because the only person they could trust is themselves a lot of times. Yes.

[00:51:01] So self-efficacy was developed very young, usually to get through some form of massive abuse. Okay. Not always. Oprah Winfrey is a good example of that. She has a ton of self-efficacy. And she was abused. Right. She's a deep unlovable, for sure. You've done a lot of work in that area. And it's fascinating. So I appreciate your wisdom on that. And I want to be mindful of your time. I know we're a little bit after seven.

[00:51:30] So I want to give you time to talk about Next Level University or whatever you want to focus on for the listener. If you know that you're not unstable, naive, manipulative, entitled, delusional, significance-driven, arrogant, and immature, if you are humble, you want to put in the work, and you're improvement-oriented, you're going to love Next Level University. You're going to love the work we do in the world. We are about personal responsibility. We are about striving and not arriving.

[00:51:55] We are about taking responsibility for your own future and the future of your family and the future of your community and maybe even the future of the world. And we are about getting better every day. A little bit better every day. If that resonates with you, check us out. NextLevelUniverse.com, Next Level University podcast. I'm a peak performance coach. I do business coaching, fitness coaching, finance coaching. Wow. At the end of the day, we have little sub-communities. We have a fitness accountability group. We do fitness challenges.

[00:52:23] We're in a 10-pound and 10-week challenge right now, July 1st to September 8th, 70 days, 10 pounds in 10 weeks. And we've got some Next Levelers that are doing awesome. And Kevin and I are leading by example. So Kevin and I's motto is, if we're not doing it behind the scenes when no one's watching, we will shut our mouths. Wow. Lead first, talk second, in that order. Because quite frankly, we both grew up in environments with the opposite. And we're still salty about it. No, but thank you so much for having me. I really do appreciate it.

[00:52:52] And I am actually late. Oh, sorry. To a meeting with Kevin. It's not your fault. It's all good. I should have said something. I take responsibility. But I got to go. I actually am coaching Kevin now. Right now. Okay. Well, thank you very much. And I'll be in touch. Thank you. Thank you. You as well. You as well. Thank you. Bye. Bye. As we wrap up today's episode, one thing that really stood out to me from my conversation with Alan is that success isn't just about working harder.

[00:53:21] It's also about becoming the kind of person who can lead well. And that means embracing failure, developing self-awareness, and having the courage to grow through discomfort instead of avoiding it. I hope this conversation encourages you to reflect on your own leadership journey, whether you're leading in the workplace, at home, or simply leading yourself through a difficult season. Remember that growth isn't accidental. It's intentional. If you'd like to learn more about Alan, connect with him, or explore the resources available

[00:53:48] through Next Level University, you'll find all of his information in today's show notes. If this episode encouraged you, would you take a moment to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a little hope today? Every share helps me reach someone who may need the reminder that success isn't just measured by what we accomplish. It's also measured by who we become. So until next time, remember, even in the middle of life's greatest struggles, there is still beauty to be found in the mess.

[00:54:16] As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend. And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about,

[00:54:43] or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.