Ep. 157 Pain Doesn't Become Purpose Just Because Time Passes with Keith Dorscht

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. Today's guest is Keith Dorscht, a marriage and relationship coach who has spent more than 30 years helping couples build stronger, healthier connections. But the work he does today was shaped by his own story. Growing up in a home marked by trauma and emotional silence, Keith learned firsthand how childhood experiences can quietly influence the way we communicate, connect, and love. Later, after his own 27-year marriage ended in divorce, he's still in the house.

[00:01:03] He stepped away from coaching for two years to confront the very lessons he had spent decades teaching others. In this conversation, we explore how our past shapes our present relationships, why emotional maturity is the key to lasting connection, and how small intentional changes can transform the way we communicate with the people we love.

[00:01:21] Keith also shares why eye contact, community, and learning to face our pain instead of avoiding it can become powerful tools for healing. Whether you're married, dating, healing from a difficult relationship, or simply wanting healthier connections with the people in your life, I think you'll find wisdom, hope, and practical takeaways in this conversation.

[00:01:41] Hi, I'm Michele Simms, your host. I'm just a regular person who, like so many others, has faced my fair share of messes. Life hasn't always been neat or easy, but it's taught me a lot, and somewhere along the way I got deeply curious. How do other people make it through their messes and not just survive, but thrive? That started my pursuit. I started searching for stories, wisdom, and real strategies, not only for myself, but for anyone looking for a better way forward.

[00:02:07] Maybe there's a faster way, a softer way, a more human way, and maybe we don't have to figure it out alone. I believe we grow through shared stories, lived wisdom, and the beautiful mess of being human. So welcome to the conversation. I'm so glad you're here. Please join me for episode 157 of The Beauty in the Mess, called Pain Doesn't Become Purpose Just Because Time Passes, with Keith Dorscht. So without further ado, let's get into it.

[00:02:34] Hi, Keith. Welcome to The Beauty and the Mess. I'm so grateful to have you with me today. Thanks, Michelle. I'm excited to be here with you. Awesome. Now, I know you're a marriage coach, but before we kind of dig into the aspects of the coaching, I was wondering if you might share some of your background with us, like what pivotal moment or pivotal time in your life started leading you down this path where you would become a marriage coach?

[00:03:00] Okay. Well, I say since I was 13 years old, I always had an interest in being a counselor. And, you know, usually that's a sign that there's messed up stuff in your family, right? And I have a couple bins of books that I would buy back then as a young teenager from my part-time job and just start reading people and personalities and counseling and stuff.

[00:03:23] And then friends' parents would say, hey, I'll pay for your lunch if you take my kid out and talk common sense to them. Wow. And so I think that affirmation from other people at that critical point in life where you're shaping what your future is going to be, what you see it looking like, having that affirmation and that contribution in my life really encouraged me to keep going down that path.

[00:03:48] And then, yeah, it took off from there. Yeah, there's some crazy stories in that. But then definitely, yeah, like five years ago, I went through my own divorce and that just took everything to a deeper level with me personally. Everything I was doing with couples and for couples, I had to face myself and apply it at a deeper level than I ever had. And that's what really helped me get to where I am today.

[00:04:19] So a whole bunch of stuff over an entire lifetime. Yeah, and we don't have to dig into it, but I had read where you also had a very traumatic childhood that probably contributed to this as well. Yeah, it probably was traumatic. I don't remember a lot of it. Oh, okay. And a lot of times they say, you know, that's a sign that there's been some tough stuff you've been through. Can I shout out Kristen Winslow in your episode? I think it's episode 151.

[00:04:46] I was listening to her and she has great stuff to say on this. If anyone's interested in like, hey, I can't remember stuff. How do I heal from stuff I can't get over? I knew stories growing up. Well, I observed my father and his mother-in-law, so my grandmother, not getting along or liking each other. And my grandmother really favored me. And I don't know why. She just, she made me a t-shirt that said my guy across the front of it.

[00:05:15] And I'm like, I don't know why I'm getting this. Why aren't my cousins getting this? Why aren't my sisters getting this? Like, what is it about me? Well, I was in the university and I came back to my hometown and visited her. And she says, Keith, there's something I want to show you. And she pulled out a newspaper from 1972. And it was about, it was a news story about a local dentist who had been charged with child abuse of his own kids. Wow.

[00:05:42] And she had written next to it a note to my father saying, this is what you've done to Keith. And she goes, I saved it because I wanted you to believe me and know that, like, you've been through some really rough stuff. And I read the article and it was about physical beating and stuff like that. And I'm like, wow, I got no memory of that.

[00:06:05] But I heard the story that my dad was mad at my mom when she had me because if the first one's a girl, which my sister, he wanted them all to be girls. And I was a boy. So maybe that's the start of it or something. I have no idea. And my dad was not someone you could talk to about deeper stuff. I remember talking to him about something and he ended up being hospitalized and they were doing tests on him.

[00:06:33] He had super high fever, like over 104 and they had to scrap him in the bed because he was shaking so much. And I knew it was all like just his internal responses, like he had no ability to deal with conflict. And so you knew if you ever brought up something in the family to talk about, there's a great risk, something bad happening to him. Family members not liking me and blaming me for things, how he dealt with stuff. That's one part of it. So I don't have those memories.

[00:07:03] I do remember being 11 and sitting in front of my family doctor and him telling me, you're the youngest person I've ever had with an ulcer, which there's people who do with a lot more stuff than ulcers. It was incredibly painful, but that's kind of young to be having that. So there must have been stuff deep inside me that was burning holes in my stomach.

[00:07:26] And then it turned into later on as a teenager, if I would do something that my parents wouldn't even like, not even wrong or illegal or anything like that, just something that was different from them that maybe didn't reflect their values or something. They'd use silence. They'd use silence so I could mark my calendar for 30 days. I'd be entering 30 days of nobody talking to me. Oh, my. And so they wouldn't talk to me.

[00:07:55] It didn't matter if it was my 16th birthday or things like that, siblings joining in and not talking to me. So that being alone and being lonely, I wasn't alone. I had four other people around me, but just a total, total disconnect. And you would have thought they were Amish or something because it was like a form of shunning and stuff. And so, yeah, that's some of the early stuff.

[00:08:22] So I don't know if there was like really harsh physical discipline. I only got that news article to try and figure out my grandmother's past. I had no reason to doubt her. So, yeah, that that's some of the stuff I've been through. Yeah. First of all, I've never heard of a family not speaking to someone for 30 days, especially a child. That's so excessive. I hate it when people don't talk to begin with, because what are you solving by not talking to someone? Right.

[00:08:51] But wow, that's insane. Yeah. Yeah. Even though, so I grew up in Canada around the Toronto area and 33, when I was 33, I moved to Colorado Springs to join a nonprofit counseling office. And so we moved, we had no family down here. And I remember one time my mother called and we were talking on the phone and we're getting ready to hang up. And I said, say, say hi to dad for me.

[00:09:16] And she, and this is like a 20 minute phone call, at least she said, oh, he's on the other line listening. He hears you. And then there was just a click and he hung up. So I can't figure it out. Wow. It blows my mind, Michelle. That's still that long. Something was off and there was no way to talk about it. The longest conversation I remember having with him, not even a conversation. He called me into his office and said, I don't like how you're treating your sister.

[00:09:45] Now leave and treat her differently. And I said, don't you want to know what's going on between her and I? Like, no, I just want you to be different. Wow. And that was it. So there was no, there was no equipping for the expectations that were put on me. I was expected to do everything well and not bring any sort of bad reputation to the family or anything like that. And just do it all, but no, no equipping. And that is what I think truly frustrates kids is when there's that expectation.

[00:10:14] However, that's communicated without the proper equipping for it, training for it, stuff like that. Right. And a lot of times the expectations aren't communicated, but they're still there, which is even worse. They're there. You only know when you fall short or cross the line. And in my case, there's just no dialogue about it. Wow. So do you know if your father had a traumatic childhood himself? I mean, because a lot of times you see people repeat what's been done to them.

[00:10:43] That stuff was never talked about with me. Okay. I was just curious. Yeah. Yeah. You can imagine. I know my grandfather, I know he drank. And I only know from one story is that my grandmother would put a shoe out on the front porch. And that was a signal. Again, very poor method of communication. But it was a signal that, hey, if you're coming home and you're drunk, don't bother coming in tonight. Oh, wow.

[00:11:08] So we talk in the shoes on the porch and smoke signals from the fire pit, I guess, to try and get stuff figured out. So, but how that impacted my dad and how big of a problem it was, I have no idea. Again, those are things you just did not talk about. I wish now at 58, I wish I knew some health history from my family. Right. Just because of the stuff I'm dealing with. And it's like, nobody knows it. Nobody passed that stuff along. Oh, wow.

[00:11:37] Yeah, it's interesting because one of the questions I had for you is, at what point later in life did you realize that some of these experiences from the past might be affecting you now? But if you can't remember them, that adds a whole new dynamic. Right. Do you feel like the past affected you even though you can't remember a lot of that? This will answer that, I think, with a quite resounding way. I had a very chaotic early part of my marriage.

[00:12:05] I encountered a lot of stuff I was not ready for. My wife had an eating disorder for her. It started at age five. And we met at 23. And I got her to a doctor. She was given six months to live. Oh, my. Went ahead and got engaged and got married. But there was a lot of chaotic stuff like her taking off and taking off on the honeymoon, taking off.

[00:12:32] The day we got back, we got back from our honeymoon and we had camping gear. We were camping and stuff. And I had it all unloaded from the vehicle. And then I had to go run a camera back to a friend that we had borrowed. And when I came back, there was just like a little tiny post-it note that said goodbye. I was like, oh, good word. What's going on? She had taken off on the honeymoon. And now, like, coming home and we're actually starting our life together. It's like, now he's going to find out who I really am. He's not going to like me. And all her stuff.

[00:13:00] So I just started making right-hand turns in our car because I learned from cops. There is some value in watching the TV show Cops. I learned that when police are chasing a criminal, they just make right-hand turns because that's the easiest turn to make if you want to get lost. You don't wait for a clean left-hand turn. So I started making right-hand turns. I found her on her bike. So it was that kind of stuff. Ten weeks after we were married, she was put in an eating disorder program. In a mental hospital.

[00:13:30] And it lasted three months. She asked for an additional month. So she was there for a total of four. But in those ten weeks, I remember us having an argument in the morning. And her saying she knew where she could get a gun and she was going to go and find that. So she left. And I went in our bedroom at ten in the morning, climbed into bed, put the covers over my head, and said, God, you got to save her because I can't even chase after her.

[00:14:00] I can't go get her. So talk about like not being able to handle conflicts and differences and needs and stuff. When you're at that point and all you can do is fall asleep. Who falls asleep with that type of situation going on? Like just total numbing out and shutting down. Not much different than probably what my dad was doing. Right. I was just wondering, as a marriage coach, how often do you see people bringing their childhood experiences or early life experiences into their marriage?

[00:14:30] And that's part of the conflict. 95% of it. 95%. But quite often they're not consciously bringing it up in conversation and ever saying, well, Keith, I think I'm reacting this way because this happened to me at five. Like I spend a good amount of time, like three hours, getting both of their backstories. And I know what questions to ask them right now to find those types of things.

[00:15:00] One area, one question I'll ask is, of course, any trauma in your life? And they'll tell me what they remember. And sometimes when they share that, it's the top layer is removed. And then like, I just say, well, pay attention, pay attention to when you're getting dressed in the morning, what thoughts pop in your head? Because now that that's kind of been put out there, other stuff might start to surface. And sure enough, the majority of cases, they're coming back and say, hey, I did have a thought last night when I was getting ready for bed, hadn't thought about it in ages.

[00:15:30] And then they'll tell me something. And it's pretty key and pretty, very big contributor to where they are. And I look at two types of trauma. I'm a real simple guy. I keep it simple. A trauma and B trauma. And the letter B trauma is what we typically think of as trauma. That's the bad stuff. What's the bad things that happened in life that I wish never happened to me? I wish I never experienced, wished I never saw. People can talk about their B trauma pretty readily. Then A trauma, A is for absent.

[00:16:00] What was missing in life that I needed, that I never got at the right time? Because when we don't get those contributions at the right time, it stunts, slows, or stops our growth in particular areas. Growth is really a natural process. A plant, what do you do? Water, soil, light. The right contributions at the right time and it'll grow. It's no different in life.

[00:16:23] We all have needs from other people around us that when they're given to us, provided us at the right time, then we grow. Now, when we don't get them, it stunts our growth, stops our growth. And then that shows up later on in life. And that's where I look at maturity, like where are they stuck? And every couple I'm working with has a problem in that area.

[00:16:48] They're behind on their growth for the traumas and the things that they didn't get they needed. So part of my work with them is identifying, well, let's start finding those contributions now. If you don't, if you're doing that, you're going to come in to my office or Zoom with me and it'll be more of a feel like a parent-child relationship because you're still trying to get stuff met from back then.

[00:17:12] And what maturity level people need to be married is they need to be able to simultaneously be mutually satisfied and enjoying each other. Those people never come to me for help. Doesn't mean they're perfect, right? But when they hit a tough spot, they have the skills to repair, get back to being in a place of joy with the other person instead of frustration or resentment or indifference and something like that.

[00:17:41] So I never meet those people. That's the third stage of maturity. And so I know everybody coming to see me is a stage one or stage two. And I know where to start working there. And as they develop that growth and those skills and start finding the community that can support them, they can just continue growing in life. Do you provide premarital counseling or have you thought about it to get people before they make that commitment? I do.

[00:18:09] I would much rather have a situation where a couple comes in and he's on his fourth marriage, she's on her third marriage. They've both cheated on each other. There's drug use. Like I would rather have that situation than premarital. Seriously? Yeah. Yeah. For the single reason. For me, just personally, the more complex it is, the more I feel like I have a lot to offer and I could work in that setting.

[00:18:36] But with the premarital, so many of them should not be getting married yet. It's not that they've got the wrong person. But I told you how I went into my marriage and was just really tsunamied by issues that I didn't see coming or anticipate or anything like that. And in trying to do well, there's still a lot of damage happening going both directions. So a lot of these couples just don't have that maturity yet.

[00:19:04] And I find it all the time and try and tell a couple, you should maybe do these things over the next year and see what kind of growth you have. They don't want to hear that. I've had, I remember one couple where they came in, it was their fifth day of premarital. And she came in crying and he says she was in the car and she said, if the invitations hadn't gone out, I'd be calling this off right now.

[00:19:32] Wow. And just for that reason, even though there was a strong suggestion that that might not be a bad idea, you'll get through it if you have to return gifts or something. They were divorced in less than a year. So it's hard to reach people at that stage. All the chemicals are there. They love each other. Can't imagine tough times coming. And so I really want to help them see what could be a problem and try and slow them down. And that's difficult. I can imagine.

[00:20:01] I was just hoping that if a lot of people don't even seek premarital counseling, so I was hoping the ones that did were ready for that advice. But it doesn't sound like it. I've got couples. I'm thinking of one that probably 23 years ago and we're still in touch. I did premarital with them. I helped them after marriage. I helped them with some tough things like miscarriages and then their own parenting and all that stuff.

[00:20:28] And so for 23 years, we've had a relationship and they just reach out at those times of needs. So those are there. Those relationships in those moments. And people do do that. And I can point to where that's a sign of maturity. Right. They're doing. So what do you think people misunderstand about marriage the most? If there's one or two things. One of the things is that they're doing good at marriage when they're managing life together well.

[00:20:55] And managing life together, the functional stuff, the kids stuff, the appointments, the finances, like doing that well does not mean you have a marriage. And so I don't think they understand what having a connection with a person is and what that can provide for them for their central nervous system. So that would be one, thinking they have a marriage just because they're functioning well. Right.

[00:21:25] That doesn't mean you have a marriage. And two, probably the ridiculous amount of self-sacrifice you have to be making at times and humility that goes along with that. I don't. Where do people learn humility? Where do they? You know, premarital counseling is a place to look into that and just see if it's there, see if they're experiencing it, see if they're capable of it.

[00:21:49] Some of the really big things in marriage are problems that come because they're stuck at that lowest level of maturity where there's not an ability to trust, not an ability to receive, not an ability to return to joy from unpleasant emotions. And if you're struggling in those areas, you're going to struggle in marriage. So the level of maturity you need for marriage, what a marriage really is and what it can provide as far as connection between two people.

[00:22:17] Those are the things I think there's some weakness in for couples. Do you feel like men and women have different expectations just as a base from each other just because of gender? Because I do. I feel like men expect certain things out of a marriage and women are expecting something else, like more of an emotional aspect. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. That is there.

[00:22:44] When I encounter that, when I hear that and that it's causing frustration, I encourage both spouses to hold your standard. Hold your standard, but adjust your expectation. Adjusting like it's just not there right now. But it can be. Right. You want to put in the work and do the growth. It's not going to be overnight. It's not going to be like a lot of ads and Facebook will tell you 72 hours and have a totally different marriage and garbage like that.

[00:23:14] It's going to take work, but that is a healthy, valid standard that there should be that meeting of your needs. You know, and so when I'm talking to a wife, I'll say, guess what? At this point right now, your husband can't meet all, but you can meet one of them or two of them. But that's okay. If you have community, you can get three or four of them met through the community. And that will help you have them met. Soften your heart a bit to your spouse.

[00:23:40] He'll have an example of what that looks like because he'll hear you telling them what these other people are providing for you, whether it's volunteering someplace and feeling appreciated. When your spouse doesn't appreciate you, when it's the wife going out and telling another woman, oh, you look beautiful. That's a great pairing with your shoes and all that. And then I get that gets returned. He starts picking up on that stuff. So just because your spouse is not meeting your emotional needs doesn't mean they can't be met other places.

[00:24:05] And that can lift some of the pressure off that just allows him to step into that space and start making attempts at it because it's not going to happen overnight. Just because he understands what she wants does nothing to equip him to be able to provide it for her. So we've got to bring down some of the hurt and frustration over that and set a very realistic timeline and strategy to follow to have that become a reality.

[00:24:33] Guys are a lot more simpler. Well, they're deeper, but they're not thinking or frustrated that, hey, I'm not feeling this from my spouse. She's not making me feel this way. We're pretty simple creatures, but it is in there. And as they mature, they start sharing what their emotional needs are. That can take a while. So how do people, how do spouses communicate to each other without triggering an argument?

[00:25:00] How do they say, hey, I need this without upsetting the other person? Yeah, at least with the couples I work with, it doesn't happen very often that they can do that. On their own. Yeah, in two seconds or less, they've fallen into their pattern. And that's usually part of why they're coming to see me. And I work at getting them a quarter second more of time before they fall into their pattern from being triggered.

[00:25:28] And then from that quarter second, we can go a little further. I'll ask them, what are you doing? What are you doing as far as communication on small talk? Now, not functional, like what time's the dinner party on Friday? What are we bringing to the 4th of July barbecue? What kid, what time is their dance? Not that functional stuff, but just small talk opportunities every day.

[00:25:51] When you're driving and you see a bumper sticker and have a conversation about it where you can just have a win and not going too deep. That is void in a lot of couples. I've actually only ever heard one couple say that they have that a couple times a day. It's like, we'll never be successful with the big talks when you can't handle the little talks.

[00:26:18] So that's a lot of reasons why counseling doesn't work for people is because they go into these big moments with big expectations. And what do they hit first? They hit like a huge topic. It's like, whatever happened that equipped them for that conversation? Nothing. It's like me going to the gym and wanting to deadlift 300 pounds. That coach would lose their job if they said, let's start there.

[00:26:45] My coach, I didn't even get to pick up a weight for three weeks. All I was doing was what I thought were silly exercises. But I realized now, you know what, they were developing my core and then I could get to the weights and start doing the curls that I wanted to do and all that stuff. You've got to build it up. And so that's lacking in a lot of models of marriage coaching is where can we get those small wins so then we can reach the bigger topics.

[00:27:11] Because if you hit the big topic in the first session or second session without doing that, people don't want to go back. And I moderate a Facebook group as I think we're at 47,000 members. And overwhelmingly, it's negative sentiment towards counseling because it didn't work. And I think that is a lot of the reason. This is not that prep or at least acknowledging this has to be happening at the same time as we start approaching these big topics.

[00:27:40] I think that's just common sense. And people go, oh, yeah, that's true. Why would I think I could talk about that? So how important do you think the nonverbal is as far as and I'm talking simple things like holding hands or not rolling your eyes when your spouse is telling you things like that? How important is that? What is that statistic? Is it 92% is nonverbal? Oh, wow. So that's very important. Your core emotion.

[00:28:07] So whatever that feeling is, your posture, your attitude towards your spouse is communicated out your eyes in a sixth of a second. And your eyes are the most accurate communicator of what's going on inside. You know, how long ago did they come up with the eyes or the window to the soul, right? They knew that even before science came out to support it. So it's not the words out your mouth. It's not the tone. It's not the volume. It's not how fast you're talking.

[00:28:37] Actually, yeah, it's all the eyes. And so what happens with couples is that's one of the first thing that falls away is they stop making eye contact because they don't want to get that unfiltered truth of where their spouse is. Because if you're afraid in the conversation, you're the wife and you're afraid of bringing something up.

[00:29:01] If you make eye contact with your husband in that moment, his eyes will pick up like it can't not pick up that fear. Now, the wife might be afraid of bringing this to his attention this much because she's done it before and it never worked well. His eyes are going to receive that and he's going to feel it like this much, like he's actually going to feel it in a fraction of a second. And his brain is going to decide, is this life giving?

[00:29:29] Is this something I can move towards or is it not? And so that is true empathy. People say you can improve your empathy and there's different types of empathy. But the empathy I'm talking about is foundational, like you're saying with the body language and stuff. Those messages that are signals and inputs to our central nervous system that have us deciding even before we can think about it, whether it's a good thing to move towards. And so often it is not.

[00:29:56] And so you don't have that connection that could even carry the conversation that you want to have. And that's where damage really occurs in the relationship, whoever it is you're talking to, because you're talking and saying words, but you're not in control of them. And they're not coming from that connected place with that person. So there has to be empathy. If there is, let's say the husband had a great day. He listened to a really good Michelle podcast and is pumped.

[00:30:26] And he comes in the house. He's in a better place. And she says, hey, I got something I got to bring to your attention. And she's bringing it like here and he can feel it. And he's like, I'm ready for his brain decides, OK, let's go. I'm in a good place for it. It doesn't happen often, but they can have those conversations. So it's so important. The body language, like you said, I had one couple. They were back when I had a physical office back 20 years ago. I do something. I call it the communication cure method that I use in my coaching.

[00:30:56] And I wanted them to turn their chairs towards each other, go knee to knee, hold hands. And then I was going to start giving them questions. Well, before they turned their chairs, the wife reached into her purse and put on her sunglasses. Oh, my. And it was, we're indoors, not direct sunlight or anything. I said, can I ask why you just did that? And she goes, yeah. She goes, it's like this.

[00:31:20] I have a stone driveway at my home and I know that I can walk from my house to my pickup truck in my bare feet, get my grocery bags and carry them across the stones into my house. No problem. And she goes, I know what you're doing right now is going to cause me to or force me to put cream on my feet and soften them. And I don't want to go there. And so she put her sunglasses on because she just knew eye contact was going to disrupt her heart.

[00:31:50] I was going to do it in a good way. Right. But she was fearful of the fear. She is the only client that has never come back after a first session. And I spent the next four days with her husband that we were doing an intensive. But there's just must have been a lot of pain there. And she knew it. But if you know how to face people and guide the conversations so their whole central nervous system can experience something new, you're updating its ability in real time and strengthening it.

[00:32:18] I love doing Zooms because when I do a Zoom with a couple, it forces them to be next to each other. Right. And when you're within three feet of a person, this isn't even nonverbal communication. When you're within three feet of a person, your brain chemistry start to match with the more positive one or the stronger one leading. So it could go negative or positive, depending what is stronger. When I had my physical office and they were sitting in two chairs with wheels, I would watch

[00:32:46] them move their chairs apart and I could tell what was going on with that. Now, very rarely do I see that in a Zoom, but it's helpful. The two people that need to connect is not me and them. I need to lead them and I need to be sensitive and sympathetic and all of that going on. But the connection has to occur between them. And as long as they are together, what needs to happen can happen, even if they're on a

[00:33:13] Zoom, just by knowing how our bodies react to each other. I watch when a spouse reaches over and hold hands. Such a big clue. When she's sharing something and this shut down husband puts his hand on her leg and she doesn't brush it away. I'm like, OK, we're at a really good spot here. Now, how can I deepen what is happening? What is she saying and what is he feeling? You touched her leg.

[00:33:39] I want him now to verbalize something to add another layer of what's going on inside him, not just that physical signal. And so I'll lead them in a way that he can do that and build that. And that's all creating new pathways in their brains. Wow. I would think that would be harder for a man to share what the deeper emotion is, but maybe that's just a stereotype. I don't know. So he might have a hard time saying it, but here's what I'll do.

[00:34:06] I'll tell him, look in her eyes and tell her what you're feeling. And he doesn't, if he's not able to put it in words, remember your eyes communicate the most, right? Right. So if she is looking in his eyes, she's going to feel it, even though he can't put it into words yet because of his own emotional immaturity. So there's always ways around it. But like, that's not happening at home. Right. They're not, they're still avoiding eye contact and stuff.

[00:34:32] So in coaching them, it's like, OK, I don't think, I think he might guess wrong on what he's feeling, but his eyes won't lie. So I tell him, look in your white's eyes and she'll always want to see. And that is 100% accurate. And if he gets pretty close to what he's feeling and can share it, that just adds. So you've got the physical touch, the verbal, you're hearing it, you're seeing it. And those are breakthrough moments. As silly as this may sound, do you think that that's one thing missing with couples today

[00:35:01] is that eye contact? Because as you're talking, I'm thinking of life is crazy busy, right? We've got kids, we're going every direction, or some people have grandkids, whatever the case may be. But I think of all the times like my husband and I are having conversations in the car where the driver is obviously looking straight ahead. On the couch, you're usually looking straight ahead. So it's just not intuitive anymore, I don't think. Is that a wrong statement?

[00:35:31] The intuitive word is interesting. What I say is it's common sense, but it's not common practice. Okay. Yeah, it's not. And then there's the devices and all that sort of stuff. Exactly. Everybody's got their face on their phone. And even when you go out to dinner, everybody, I look around, everybody's on their phone. I'm like, why did we even go out? Mm-hmm. So. Yeah. That, we're missing so much.

[00:35:57] It is foundational for having the intimate connection that a spouse wants or a parent wants or a kid needs and stuff. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I remember. I can remember my dad's angry eyes. And I remember some advice I got for one of my earlier, when our kids were younger, I had six kids. When the first two were younger, someone said to me, you know, when you want your kid

[00:36:25] to really listen to you and do what you're saying, like, hey, go pick up your shoes or something, point here between the eyes and ask them to look in your eyes and they'll really get the message. Oh, wow. And by the time I was asking them to do something, I was usually frustrated that they hadn't done it or that they forgot to do it. And I was asking them, look in my eyes. And I was burning adult level frustration into four-year-old little brains that there was

[00:36:54] no way they could handle that. And they could do nothing but just disconnect. Wow. In their brain. Because it's too much for them. Even though my frustration might have been mild, it might have been heightened. But even if it was mild, it's too much for that young brain to process and figure out, is it dad's issue that he's upset? Is it my issue that I deserve this look? And so I learned when I was upset not to look at, not to make eye contact with my kids. Wow.

[00:37:22] I might be face to face, but I'm looking over one shoulder or over their head or beyond them. But if there is something they did that I wanted to communicate, I was proud of them, really pleased. Thank you. I'd like, I want to tell you something, but I want to look in your eyes when I'm telling you. Wow. They can handle that stuff. Joy. Right. Glad to be with you. This is fun. I'm glad to be with you. I want to be looking in their eyes when I tell them that. Okay. That's very interesting.

[00:37:50] I never thought of what we convey non-verbally through our eyes to that extent. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I want to transition to one thing. I know that you talk about pain doesn't become purpose just because time passes. Yeah. I was wondering if you could talk to us about that for a minute. Yeah. Time heals. No, you have to face it. You have to look at it, acknowledge what it is.

[00:38:14] So, you know, emotional maturity is knowing the pain, being able to speak the pain, literally just out saying those words they are, and then not numbing it with anything that you might typically do to numb it. So letting yourself feel it. A negative emotion. Our bodies are designed to release a negative emotion in 90 seconds.

[00:38:39] As long as we're not doing anything to add to it, like negative thinking, why'd they do that? They shouldn't have done that right now. We're feeding that feeling. But if we can know it, name it, and let it pass without numbing it, it will go away. Facing the fears, you can't ignore them. You have to say, hey, what happened? What did it do to me when I wasn't talked to for so long? How did that create shame inside of me? And that shame was developed at a very young age.

[00:39:09] But I know 50 years later in life, that shame was still there because I couldn't own doing anything wrong. I couldn't admit failures of my own because that would tap into that shame. And that was a huge frustration with my wife and my kids. It's like, you're never wrong. You're always right. It's always us. And in my head, I would, yeah, well, I am right. And here's why.

[00:39:38] And I'd have an argument, a legitimate argument for it. But it destroyed relationship. And it's only when I faced that shame. My wife and I had been to nine counselors over the course of our marriage. Counselors, coaches, some intensives, some like just over time, a lot, just always trying to get through stuff as well as make things better. And not one of them ever brought up the issue of like, if I had shame. And I found out by facing it that, wow, that was the driver.

[00:40:06] And it caused so much destruction in my family. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I faced that. I faced it when, okay. When I went through my divorce, I took two years off from my work. I shut down everything. Wasn't doing anything. Just working on myself, working on the shame issue. And still coming back and saying like, here, the number of people that would laugh and chuckle

[00:40:31] and have funny googly eyes, judgment eyes on me of like, your marriage failed and you're helping other people. Yeah. I'd overcome those fears of that. I knew my 30 years that I had helped people. I knew what happened for them in their lives and stuff like that. That wasn't untrue. I still had that skill. I had to get over my shame and fear of what people are going to say and facing that allowed me. And then a couple of encouragements from a few other people.

[00:41:01] And now here I am three years back into doing what I know I meant to do. And can you turn that to that, that gives you more of an expertise to help people because you know, now, you know, a pattern to look for, you know what the other side of the relationship when it ends, what that's like. Exactly. I mean, it gives you more understanding. Right. More understanding, more feeling. Right. Like more like, oh, I know where you're headed. Exactly.

[00:41:29] I really don't want you to go there, but I'm not going to carry your work for you. You got to do it. But please listen to me that if this certain thing continues, where it will lead you. And I come with warning signs. I come with greater understanding. I come with greater understanding and just I'm showing up as a more whole person. And that's got to be good, I guess. For sure. I know. Yeah. Yeah. So what would be one thing that if they, if people listening don't remember much else,

[00:41:59] what would be one thing that you would want them to take with them today from our conversation? Let's go back to the eye contact because we talked about it a lot. Okay. Yeah. Our brain is designed and organized to experience and live in a state of joy. Joy is relational. Happiness is I got a new outfit. Happiness is, oh, the T-bones were on sale this weekend. Got the kitchen renovated, lost weight, whatever.

[00:42:30] That is happiness. It's non-relational. Joy only comes through relationship and it is that signal out someone else's eyes that they're glad to be with you. Man, you run to that person when that's the signal they're giving you. So what I want people to think about is one, increase your eye contact, especially when inside you're glad to be with them. That's even different than like you've had a rough day, kids are running crazy around the

[00:42:58] house, husband comes home and you now are feeling relief. Because you've got some support, he's going to feel that sense of relief, which isn't, I'm glad to be with you, but it's kind of close. But find those moments, create more moments where you're glad to be with the person and you communicate it and you have eye contact when you do it. It will shift everything in a marriage. The negative feelings can't coexist with that sort of thing.

[00:43:24] And your ability to handle stress in life is proportionate to the cumulative amount of joy you've built up over the years. So find relationships, develop your community with people who are glad to be with you and spend time with them face to face. That's awesome. Thank you. Do you think that advice is the same, whether it's a brand new couple or somebody who's been together 40 or 50 years? I mean, it's the same, right?

[00:43:54] It is. It is. I think of the couple I had, he had scheduled a 15-hour intensive with me as a 50th wedding anniversary for his wife. Oh, wow. He knew it was what she wanted. And they came and they experienced deep levels of that joy. At any, that is, your brain will get very close to being set in its pattern.

[00:44:19] The part of the brain that gets set the least is called the right orbital prefrontal cortex. So it's the front above the right eye. That part is the most open to changing at any point in your life. And that is the part that registers that joy. So at any point, no matter what you've been through in life and what your experiences are, your best shot is always to start connecting with people who are glad to be with you and

[00:44:46] know you and accept you and love you and hold you accountable and care for you that way. So there's always hope. That's awesome. So if someone has listened today and they feel broken from life, what would be your best advice to help them start, just start the process? Get professional help. Right. People, people lack the community they need. They might have some people they can talk to.

[00:45:14] I've done over 500 intensives and ask every couple, who's your community? Because if you want whatever happens in this office in the next 15 hours over five days, if you want whatever progress you make to be a fixture in your life, you're going to have to have community outside of these walls or this screen that can stand you up, dust you off and point you back to your marriage and doing the good things that you can do in it. And I ask them, who do you have?

[00:45:44] And it's only been, it was about three weeks ago, I had the second person ever say my family. Prior to that in 30 years, one person said, oh, my family. Then three weeks ago, the second person said my family. Nobody else came up with that as here's people I can go to who I know will do that for me. They might tell me what I want to hear. They're really not good for me. But the way you described community, Keith, that can make those contributions in my life so I can grow, I don't have those people.

[00:46:14] So I'm going to say people do not have the community they need. And a lot of times the people they do reach out to are not giving great advice or counsel. So what they need is that person who can sit with them and capture those moments that are happening in real time and cause them to go deeper with the suggestions and the prompts of the eye contact, the right questions to ask, the responses and things like that. That's what changes relationship and community.

[00:46:42] You're not going to have that friend who says, well, let me sit with you and your husband. And no, they'll tell you what to do, but it's all one sided. So I just don't think the quality of what people need is out there. So I'd say get professional help. Okay, awesome. Is there anything we didn't cover today that you want to make sure everyone hears? Yeah, that'll be in podcast 215 when we do it. Okay, when we do the next episode. There is so much. Yeah, I could get it.

[00:47:08] I really like teaching more about the maturity because there are those five stages. And in each of those stages, there's five or six things that you need to learn how to do and gain those capacities. But that's another whole topic, but it's very practical and hands-on. But people can start looking it up. Yeah, I think that's very important. Find stuff. Yeah. Or reach out to me. Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to take a few minutes and talk about your coaching business? I do.

[00:47:38] Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. What I would talk about is not working with me. Like what? Given the chance, you would say that? So out of everything. So when I was being shunned in my home, I would walk around the house and I'd come home from school and I walked through the door and I'd say, I wish mom would ask me this question. You know, I'd have in mind something that happened in school that I'd love to process with her or talk to somebody about. I wish mom would ask me this question.

[00:48:06] I'd pretend that she would ask me that question and I would give a full answer in my head to it. And then I would say, okay, I'd ask another question about that. I would take it further. And I was creating that connection and conversation that I needed in that moment. And I did a lot of it. And I always thought I was a little crazy. It wasn't voices in my head. It was me directing conversations that I knew I needed. And then here I am, that's at age 10.

[00:48:35] And then at like 25, I started working. So 15 years later, I'm sitting with a couple. I'm saying, go knee to knee, hold hands, look in each other's eyes. And I say to the husband, I'm going to give you the question to ask your wife. And while you're, and I want you to repeat it. And while he's repeating it, they have an eye contact. So if I provide him a good quality question, I know his emotion is going to come out his eyes to her. And there'll be an instant connection. She'll answer.

[00:49:01] And then based on her answer alone, I'll give the next question or prompt to him. I don't even, I don't know what it is. I don't have a script. Just what's the next question that, that takes us further. Some couples, like I said, I spent up to three hours getting a background on a couple, depending on how complex and levels there is in their situation. And sometimes I'll just have that first question be him asking her, why are we in this Zoom meeting with Keith today? And she's grabbing the Kleenexes right away. Oh, wow. Right away.

[00:49:30] Because it's like, because he asked it in a different way. And immediately she felt safe, like she could answer and be honest. And that was a relief for her. And the tears come. I see that so often in the first couple of questions. And they're grabbing the Kleenex. That tells me everything else from there is going to move forward really well. So I will do things like that.

[00:49:55] When I'm listening to people, I'm always asking, what did this gal sitting in front of me now at 45 need when she was 15? And how can I provide it for her now? What conversations did she need? Again, because that was my thing is like, how do I get connection and conversation? I took care of myself with that. I'm helping these people.

[00:50:19] Well, one, and then people would always, not always, but a lot of times a couple would say on Friday, what do we do next week when you're not sitting in our living room? What do we do next week when you're at our kitchen table? Because we're not there yet where we can do this on our own. And I'm like, I'm a problem solver. I got to find a way. And then I got this idea that the method I use in coaching is the communication cure. I created a communication cure tool that is not information.

[00:50:48] When people are upset, the mildest form of upset is confusion. Like me right now with, oh, I got another podcast to do, right? What time is it? I looked at my calendar. Oh, it's 11. Information solved that upset, that panic. I'm not going to think about it tonight. I'm not going to think about tomorrow. It solves it. But the deeper the pain is, the more relational the resource has to be.

[00:51:14] Now, a huge percentage, you tell me, I like to say 90% plus of things that people are getting as far as help and resources are that information piece. Whether it's a program, a course, even something they're listening to, watching. It's just information. But most people are at the highest level of pain, which means they need the most relational. So they try these resources. They don't work. They don't fix it. Because it could be one person just reading about something.

[00:51:44] So the communication cure is, I want to solve absolutely every level of pain that a person has and get them connected. So what they do, it's a 10-week experience. And every week they get an email and there's a video that they watch together. And I say, do not watch it alone first. Don't try and get a feel for it. Don't watch it to see if your husband will like it. You need the impact of the moment. And people need to listen to me when I say that's important. Because you'll lose it if you watch it beforehand.

[00:52:14] So they watch this. I have a free sample on my website. And I use a four-minute Budweiser basketball commercial that they sit and watch. How non-threatening is that? Right? Because I said, we've got to talk about the small stuff before we hit the big stuff. So in my resource, like, yeah, we all watch commercials. Is it possible to turn a commercial into something meaningful? Well, here's a four-minute basketball beer commercial you're going to watch together. So guess what? You're sitting close. You're within three feet of each other.

[00:52:43] You're watching it on your laptop. It's inspiring. It's moving. Watch it together. Then right below it is a presentation screen. And it's going to ask a series of ten questions. And so you do what I do in my office. You sit. You hold hands. You have the computer there. You hit play. And the first question comes up in audio. It'll ask the question. And again, you're having eye contact.

[00:53:12] Now that voice, you've never heard that voice before. That's Wayne Shepherd. His voice was picked by a team of seven functional neurologists that says this is the best voice to calm the amygdala in a person's brain. So it's calming. It's keeping your brain curious. Because if your spouse asks a question, honestly, your brain is going to react to it in a negative way. So let's remove that hurdle. Let's remove it and get a new voice in there asking the question.

[00:53:39] There's background music, piano music playing by a guy I licensed it from. He's the pianist of peace. And I was at a counseling conference and he heard what I was doing. He said, I want my music to be the background. Because when two brains are listening to the same piece of music, they're functioning identically. So we've got that working for us. We've got background music that's soothing and making our brains more like we have a voice that we've never heard before. And it asks a question on a scale of one to 10. I'm making this up like, how impressed were you with that video?

[00:54:07] How surprised were you with that video we watched? And so one person answers that. Then you hit the next question and the same person answers the next question. And they build on each other. A conversation starter says when you're reading a conversation starter in your own voice. So that'll trigger. But it says, here's your problem. You don't know how to ask the first question. That's not the problem. Because then you're assuming if you give me the first question to ask my wife, what animal would you like to be if you could be any animal?

[00:54:37] Then they expect me to be able to come up with a meaningful conversation from that. How am I going to come up with the second question or the fifth question if you have to give me the first question? It's a broken model and it falls short in so many ways. So this asks a series of 10 questions on that video and it makes it very personal to you. A lot of times people will read a book and the husband will go, I'm not that guy in the book. This doesn't, this isn't speaking to me. Okay. Well, the solution to that is talk about yourself in this.

[00:55:07] So you get through the 10, then you hit replay and the same 10, 10 questions are asked and the other spouse is answering them. And what you've done, you've broken the pattern of listening to formulate your answer. You're not doing that because you're not saying anything. You're just listening to their 10 answers. And then you reverse it 20 minutes around the 20 minute mark of that type of connected conversation is when there's a release of oxytocin that's greater than the level of oxytocin released

[00:55:36] during sexual intercourse and orgasm. So it can be more powerful than that experience when you have that meaningful communication. So every week they get a new one for 10 weeks. There's that one that's a commercial. There's a song that they listen to together. Hold each other, listen to the song and the lyrics. And then you talk about it. There's a couple of comedy clips that are just fun about things in life, like things that are non-threatening. Yes.

[00:56:00] There's a video about connection and how connection is so important for Navy SEALs. It gets you wondering how important could it be in my marriage? So nothing preachy. I'm not teaching you anything. I'm giving you the exact experience and connection you'd get in my office, but it will achieve the same thing. In over 10 weeks, you've got enough repetition that now the sensitivity in your brain decreases.

[00:56:26] So when you get that sharp look or that sharp tone from your spouse, the sensitivity is less, the reaction will be weaker, and you can actually work through that and process it with them. So I recommend something that's not even me. And if you need more, then through my website, I do counseling sessions. My counseling sessions are 90 minutes because I found 50 minutes serves the scheduler and the insurance companies.

[00:56:55] 90 minutes is really what a couple needs minimum to sit into a session and get to the deeper places they need to get to. Does 90 minutes cost more than 50? Sure. But you're going to get further. Right. Because 50 minutes you'll talk about last week and you might start to get somewhere. That's what I hear people saying all the time. We just get into it. And then the session ends. Well, you know why you're just getting into it? Because the counselor or coach is likely coasting.

[00:57:23] And they know that you guys can talk about stuff for 45 minutes and last five minutes to say, well, let me introduce this idea to you. And they'll give you a small thing. I'm not about that because when I started my coaching, I always had someone literally sitting in the back corner of the office observing. We trained by people sitting in on sessions. So I always had someone watching, which means like I couldn't coast. I had to always be focused on helping this couple and moving them forward.

[00:57:53] We were a nonprofit, so it was all donation based. So it meant if I didn't make progress for you, you quite likely may not make any kind of donation. That is how I was supporting my family of eight at the time. So for years, just highly motivated to get deep lasting results quickly and not waste time. And that's because people watching me and I'm just the kind of guys like, I want to maximize this, make the most of it.

[00:58:20] So 90 minute sessions, if people want to go further. That communication cure, which is an incredible tool, that's just $47 right now for the whole 10 weeks. And I just, it's the pain I went through on an online platform that people can use. They don't have to. And I just don't think it's right to make more money off it just because I can. I want to make everything I do affordable. And I recommend people try that even before they would ever book with me.

[00:58:49] One question I still have real quick is, I know we talked about maturity, but does this help people achieve the maturity they need? And what if they're at different levels? How does that work? It totally does. So that, I'm glad you brought that up because that is another piece that makes this so rich. But as I said, we need, with maturity, there's a task you need to learn. So like in the earliest stages of life, you have to learn to receive. You have to learn to trust.

[00:59:17] Well, there needs to be contributions by people so that you can then reach and grab that and grow in that. That middle column is what community supplies. Community is like mom and dad, aunts and uncles, friends. Like that's what I mean by community. It's all of that. But when that was missing, you're going to need to find it later in life.

[00:59:41] So if your skill, if your immaturity has you not being able to express your emotions appropriately, the only time you ever express anything is when you're angry. Part of that's a maturity issue. What is the right contribution you need? You need someone who will allow you to communicate and be an example of how it is done appropriately.

[01:00:05] Well, this tool does that because it will ask a question that will allow you to share a thought, feeling or a need. Those are three different things we need to be good at. So it'll ask a question, bring out one of those. But when you're listening to your spouse answer it, if they're at a higher level maturity, you'll have that example of them doing it. And then you'll have that. Oh, okay. That's what depth looks like. Oh, that's broadening my vocabulary.

[01:00:31] So I was very intentional with those couples in mind that don't have that community of how can this tool provide as much of that as possible. It won't replace it 100%. But that is built in behind it as well. Not just interrupting the brain patterns, but that opportunity for maturity as well. Awesome. Well, thank you. Thanks for asking that. Yeah. That's important. It is important, I think.

[01:00:57] And so how can people find you if they're listening and they say, I love Keith, I want to reach out to him. I want more of what he has to say. Where can they find you? Keith.coach is my website. And it's got pages for the communication cure, a couple other resources as a scheduling page. You can sign up for webinars when I present them and do like an hour and a half breakdown of what maturity is or how connection happens.

[01:01:24] If they want a little more in-depth of what we went into today, that is all there. And yeah, that's where I'd send everybody. Keith.coach. Okay. Well, I thank you for being with us today. And I thank you for your wisdom and being willing to share it with us. It's been great. I enjoyed it. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Great start to my day. Thank you. Thanks, Michelle. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. As we wrap up today's episode, the one thing that really stood out to me from my conversation with Keith is that healthy relationships aren't built

[01:01:53] through perfection. They're built through intentional connection. Whether it's learning to communicate differently, healing from old wounds, or simply being fully present with the people we love, small changes can have a lasting impact. While not everyone will agree with every perspective shared today, I hope this conversation encourages you to reflect on your own relationships and reminds you that healing is always possible no matter where your story begins. If you'd like to learn more about Keith, connect with him, or explore his coaching and resources,

[01:02:24] you'll find all of his information in today's show notes. If this episode helped encourage you, please take a moment to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a little hope today. Every share helps me reach someone who may need the reminder that stronger relationships and deeper healing are possible. Until next time, remember, even in the middle of life's greatest struggle, there is still beauty to be found in the mess. As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend.

[01:02:59] Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend. And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.