Ep. 168 The Past Is Over So Why Does It Still Hurt with Nicky Yazbeck

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:33] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. Do you ever wonder why you keep putting everyone else first, questioning your worth, or repeating the same relationship patterns? Today I'm joined by Nicky Yazbeck, a licensed trauma-informed EMDR therapist and podcast host. We're exploring how old experiences can shape what we believe about ourselves, what EMDR therapy actually looks like, and how healing can help us find our voice.

[00:01:02] If I'm not enough has been playing on repeat in your head, this conversation is for you. Hi, I'm Michele Simms, your host. I'm just a regular person who, like so many others, has faced my fair share of messes. Life hasn't always been neat or easy, but it's taught me a lot, and somewhere along the way I got deeply curious. How do other people make it through their messes and not just survive, but thrive? That started my pursuit.

[00:01:28] I started searching for stories, wisdom, and real strategies, not only for myself, but for anyone looking for a better way forward. Maybe there is a faster way, a softer way, a more human way, and maybe we don't have to figure it out alone. I believe we grow through shared stories, lived wisdom, and the beautiful mess of being human. So welcome to the conversation. I'm so glad you're here.

[00:01:52] Please join me for episode 168 of The Past Is Over, Why Does It Still Hurt? with Nikki Yazbek. So without further ado, let's get into it. Hi, Nikki. Welcome to The Beauty in the Mess I'm so grateful to have you with me today. Oh, thank you for having me. Of course. Now, I know you're a licensed EMDR therapist and a yoga teacher and many other things podcast has.

[00:02:19] But before we get into all that, I was wondering if you could tell us some of your background, like what led you down the path to even become an EMDR therapist? Yeah. I think when I was really little, I was like the person that everybody went to for their problems. And I like to be the problem solver and the listener and the keeper of all secrets. So it seemed natural for me to just get an undergraduate in psychology. And then I ended up getting a master's in social work.

[00:02:44] And so for a long time, probably the first 10 years, I was just kind of floating around in different directions in the social work world. I worked on the Indian reservation with Native Americans on a dialysis center as a medical social worker. I worked with homeless youth. I was like a rape counselor. I did all these different jobs. And then I took a little break when I had my kiddo. And then when he was old enough, I went into private practice.

[00:03:09] And I think being older and having like done more of my own personal work and having a little bit more time and experience behind me, it just made me a better, a better therapist. And so I was, I kept hearing about EMDR, how powerful it is and how amazing it is. And I didn't have a lot of experience as being like the participant of EMDR, but I just went ahead and went straight into the training. When we were in the training, we did a little bit of work on each other.

[00:03:38] And since then I've done EMDR, but I've seen it like it to me is like one of the most magical therapeutic modalities out there. It's incredible. And it's different than any other modality that I've ever used. So I'm a huge fan and a huge believer. That's great. So, because it's something I know very little about, but I've always been curious. I mean, I've seen it. I've heard about it. Been very curious about it. So what does EMDR stand for? First off. Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

[00:04:08] Okay. And so you're reprocessing and desensitizing traumatic material with the eye movements. So what do you classify as traumatic? I mean, obviously like a rape victim would be traumatic, but are there lesser versions of trauma? I know that sounds silly. Yeah, I know. It's such a good question because I think people hear the word trauma and then they just associate, oh, that must be physical abuse or sexual abuse or something like that.

[00:04:37] And trauma is so much more vast than that. And I think most of us are walking around with trauma. And so I like to use this example with my clients so that they understand my perspective of where I'm coming from trauma. And so imagine that you had like pretty, pretty perfect childhood upbringing. And, but your dad is so little girl and her dad is just really preoccupied with work and he's busy and he's preoccupied and he's on his phone all the time.

[00:05:04] And so they're walking down the street and the little girl reaches for her dad's hand and her dad flings her hand away because he's really busy. He's in this really important call and he can't be bothered in that moment. And because that's happened enough times over and over again, this little girl all of a sudden in that moment swallows this concept and idea that she's not lovable. It's not true. We know that it's not true.

[00:05:27] But in that moment, she swallows that idea and that concept and she carries that throughout the rest of her life. And that idea shades all of her interactions in the future and how she shows up in the world and how she shows up in relationships with, with partners and with family members and things like that. So that doesn't seem like a trauma, but it's had this major impact on her and she's carried it through her life. Whereas like a car accident could be a trauma.

[00:05:56] If you're replaying something over and over and over in your head, or if you were bullied as a kid, or there's a lot of times that we're like siblings bully the other siblings that can be considered trauma. If it's something that's affecting your relationships and the way that you work in the world now. Which I think I already know the answer to this, but I just want the audience to hear, I guess. But can we be affected by these things and not even realize it?

[00:06:23] Because I think a lot of people until they stop and really dive deep, like where is this coming from? Don't even realize that it came from childhood or whatever. Yeah. Our coping skills are so strong and we are so good at adapting and pushing things down. And I think it's only later in life when depression starts knocking on your door or you have extreme anxiety or something like that. That's when you go and you ask for help.

[00:06:52] And then when you pull the string and you weave it back and you weave it back and you weave it back, there's always some kind of trauma underneath there. And it could be your parents divorced and you think it's your fault. And then you think your dad left because it was you and you're the cause of it. And you have this abandonment wound. And so then you have these insecure attachments with all of these partners that come into your life. It could be in a good, I guess a good gauge of that is like, how are you showing up now in your relationships and your partnerships? How is your mood?

[00:07:22] Are you feeling depressed? Are you feeling anxious? Are you having lots of nightmares? If the answer is yes to any of that, then likely there's some trauma underneath there. And it doesn't have to be a big T trauma, which is the big T is what we call like physical abuse, sexual abuse. Neglect is one of the worst, I think. And that's the one that we kind of overlook where our parents didn't pay any attention to us. And that's harder. And then there's the little T traumas, which are kind of the examples I gave before.

[00:07:50] Other than like depression or anxiety, could things like even people pleasing or perfectionism, can some of those things be stemming from the trauma as well? I mean, that's why we're trying to overachieve, right? We're trying to overcome something from the past. Yeah. That's what I would get. I mean, I come from like a psychodynamic background. So I think everything kind of stems from our childhood. I do too. And so, yeah.

[00:08:16] And so when I think about how very few people have secure attachments, but do we have secure attachments with our family members? If they weren't this consistent figure that showed up over and over and over again, where we knew that something happened, that they were going to be there and they had our back and they were encouraging us and they were encouraging us to be the best version of ourselves. And they weren't critical and things like that. If we had that parent, then there's a likelihood that we formed a secure attachment.

[00:08:45] But if we didn't, which a lot of us don't, then we have these insecure attachments and we have these anxious attachments, this disorganized. And when we have that 100%, it's going to show up in our relationships over and over and over again until it gets healed.

[00:08:58] And so that's the motivation to heal that is because the patterns that play up over and over and over again, if you keep getting fired from jobs, if you keep losing best friends, if you keep flying through partners, if you keep having issues with authority figures or your boss, and that keeps playing out over and over and over again, there's something that needs to be healed in there. And people pleasing is to me, the highest form of self abandonment out there, right? I'm going to do what you want me to do.

[00:09:27] And I'm going to show up the way you want me to show up. And I'm going to abandon my own needs and wants and desires to show up the way that you want me to. And then when I do that, you like this version of me, but I'm never really sure if you like the real me underneath there. And so I'm scared to show that to you. And so people are never really loving you for who you are because you're not showing that version of them, of yourself to them. Yeah.

[00:09:52] I think a lot of times, just my point of view, I guess people pleasers, if they're an extreme people pleaser, they don't even know who they really are anymore because they're so into whatever. And I get it. I think it's because they never felt approval as a child or whatever it was. And so now they're seeking, they're desperate for that approval. So they're willing to, that's a sacrifice they're willing to make, I guess. Yeah. And that's seeking outside of yourself to make yourself whole.

[00:10:21] And that never really works. So when we're looking for our partners to fulfill some hole, we're lonely and we're looking for a partner to fill that. Or if we're sad and incomplete and we need somebody else to kind of fill that hole for us, that's the self-abandonment piece too. That's the part that needs to be healed where we need to be whole and complete and then call in other people.

[00:10:45] Do you, like I, in the circles I'm in, and I've talked about this before on the podcast, but there's a, I almost call it like an epidemic of, especially I'm in women's circles. It could be men too, of course, but like unworthiness is huge, low self-esteem, all of these things. But do you think a lot of it could be stemming from trauma and we're just, you know, cause I wonder like how much is from social media and comparisons and how much is coming from your childhood.

[00:11:13] And maybe it depends on how long you've been dealing with this. I don't know. What are your thoughts? Yeah. I mean, social media is not great for our self-esteem. And I think, but I think if you have this healthy sense of self, when you're young, when you think about pre-puberty, if you have stable supports and a healthy sense of self and you're getting validated, not overly validated, but you're getting validated and you're loved and you're nurtured.

[00:11:41] And when there's disruptions in the home, there's repair and you learn that then you develop this healthy sense of self as you start moving in through puberty and then through adulthood. So I think more of it has to do with our attachments, with our caregivers and who's in our life and less to do with trauma, but definitely trauma has something to do with it. And I think women walk around with, I'm not enough or I'm too much.

[00:12:05] And this unworthiness theme, and then men walk around with the theme of I'm bad. But I'd say like almost everybody has this, I'm not worthy theme somewhere brewing around in the background. I think there's always, always things to be healed. But if you're feeling that and you don't have a strong sense of self, then you're going to likely seek that outside of yourself. And that work needs to begin inside with yourself.

[00:12:33] So can this EMDR therapy help things beyond trauma? I mean, like, like if say it's not stemming from a trauma, can it still help people overcome things? I use it for almost everybody. Not everybody. Not everybody is a great candidate and it doesn't work for everybody. But there's usually some theme. Like I said, I'm not worthy. I'm too much. I'm not lovable. I deserve bad things.

[00:13:03] There's always some kind of like negative theme that somebody has when they're coming to therapy. Because if they're coming to therapy, things aren't working out. Something's not working out and they're seeking some support. Right. And then we go back to what is that belief? What is that core belief that they have about themselves? And then we find out where did it come from? And then it usually comes from like, yeah, I was bullied from my brother or I was bullied as a teenager and that really affected me or something happened. And it could be even in adulthood.

[00:13:31] All of a sudden there's like tons of losses. Like all of these people died and they have this abandonment thing. But typically if something's going to stick and cause like maladaptive coping skills, it's usually something that stems from childhood. And so EMDR helps with changing that negative belief and figuring out where it came from. So I use it for anxiety. I use it for depression. I use it for trauma. I use it for like adjustment. If somebody's having trouble adjusting for grief or things like that, it works.

[00:14:01] Or a car accident. Somebody gets in a car accident and then they all of a sudden don't feel safe driving. EMDR is great for that. Oh, wow. So I'm wondering like, how much do you have to, I don't know if I'm wording this correctly, but how much would you have to relive that past traumatic event in order to fix it? Because I know if I think about bad things that have happened to me in the past, I don't want to spend too much time there.

[00:14:28] So I'm just curious, like if someone came to your office, what would that be like? So if there is something that's from the past that you're not wanting to look at and spend too much time there, I would say there's a trauma there. I would say, and I would say that that's a really great place to start. And so it is uncomfortable. Like therapy's not the most fun, exciting thing in the whole wide world. And it is uncomfortable.

[00:14:52] And it's when these things persistently knock on our door and it's creating these maladaptive coping skills is when we usually seek therapy. But talk therapy can be helpful. But it's kind of like, I think of like from the here up, right? From like your throat up is talk therapy. EMDR has less talk and it's more in your body. And so the cool thing about EMDR is you re-experience, you think about that trauma for like 30 seconds and then you come back into safety.

[00:15:21] And then you go back into it for 30 seconds and you go back into safety. And so then after a while, you start to learn the two parts of the brain start to speak to each other because the trauma is locked into one part of the brain and our language and logic is locked in the other. And they're like locked apart from each other. And as we start to do the EMDR, these two parts of the brain start to speak to each other.

[00:15:45] So eventually that person who can't get behind the wheel because they've gotten in a car accident and it's so terrifying, they don't even want to think about driving or they get in it and they start having a panic attack. By the end of the EMDR series, they still have the memory of the car accident. They still have the memory of the car coming towards them or things flying in the air. But they don't have that somatic reaction. So when you have that somatic reaction, like, oh, like, oh, my God, like if somebody says something like, oh, my God, I don't want to deal with that.

[00:16:15] That's let's there's some juice there. Right. And so if you're having that reaction or if you're having that somatic experience, then there is this your body is remembering something. Your mind might not remember it, but your body's holding on to some trauma or something that doesn't feel good. That doesn't really need to. Well, we have a choice there. Right. Do we want to sit with that or do we want to. To heal it.

[00:16:42] So from what I'm gathering from what you're saying is we can kind of look at what triggers us. To know, like, there may be a. A trauma that that's stemming from. Right. If some event happens and it always triggers us in some way, even a bodily reaction, that's unusual, maybe compared to most people. And we've always heard like the body keeps the score. I don't that. So that's true. Apparently. Yeah. Yeah. So I was wondering. And that's where the juice is. Right.

[00:17:12] So if you go through your day. Right. You just go through a normal day and all of a sudden, like somebody cuts you off on the road and you start raging that day. You're like, OK, that's something to look at. If you have an exponential reaction to a normal event or if somebody says something to you and they tell you that day that they don't like your dress or I don't know what is something like that. And it really hurts. You're like, this really shouldn't hurt that much. There's some juice in there. So those triggers are moments where we can explore what it is underneath.

[00:17:42] And so maybe it's a fear of that person cut me off and I felt really unsafe or that person criticized me. And now I feel ugly. And that reminds me of like how I didn't feel pretty when I was a kid or whatever it is. And so it's when we have an abnormal reaction to something, then there's something deeper to look at. So it is. And forgive me because I am a novice to all this, but is EMDR just the eye movements or is it also the tapping or are those two separate things?

[00:18:12] So there's a bunch of ways to do EMDR. And so one is with the eye movements where you just kind of look on the horizon from left to right and you can follow like I do it remotely. So I do it with people where I pull up an app and they can do it on their computer or they do it with a light bar or a stick. Or you can even look at one side of the room and then the other and do the EMDR at a certain pace. But that doesn't work for everybody.

[00:18:36] And so you can use tapping where you this is called a butterfly tap where you cross your arms in front of your body and you tap the opposite shoulder or you could tap your knees. Or they also have these buzzers if you're in person and they buzz and they alternate. So it's this bilateral movement. So the bilateral piece is the part that kind of links the two parts of the brain together.

[00:18:58] As you're reprocessing this distressing material and as you start to connect your body sensations and feelings and thoughts and memories and this stimulation is happening at the same time, it desensitizes. It makes those not as intense as you're reprocessing it. And all of a sudden you have words and language to feelings and experiences that you couldn't otherwise put together.

[00:19:25] So is part of it like just distracting the brain while you're thinking of that negative? Yeah, you're not distracted. Well, I mean, yes and no. Like you're not completely distracting it because you think of an image. Then you have them think of an image and that's their skill and kind of figuring out exactly what that image is and how to get there. And so you figure out what that image is and then they focus on that. But then their mind can drift. And then and it's only for 30 seconds.

[00:19:53] And then they come back and you're like, what did you notice? And they might notice that they had a tantennial thought. They might notice some feelings in their body. And then you're like, OK, I noticed that when I was thinking about that, that my heart started racing and my palms started sweating. And so we say, OK, we'll go with that. And then they follow the dot or the light bar or whatever. And then for 30 seconds and then we stop and then they come back and they're like, what do you notice now? And so you're just kind of like dropping into the experience and coming back.

[00:20:23] Because what happens in trauma, the way trauma is created is our body goes into this hyper arousal state over and over and over again. And then if it gets to be in that hyper arousal state for too many times, then we go into hypo arousal and we shut down and everything shuts down. And so we have an experience, but we don't have words for it. We might even not have feelings for it. And so it's just and then we start turning away from our thoughts and we start turning away from our feelings.

[00:20:51] And so in this case, you're just kind of turning towards your thoughts for a second. You're turning towards your body sensations for a second. And as you start to turn towards them and come back to safety, they start to get less scary and they start to hold less of a charge. So it sounds like there's a I don't know if you want to say mental or emotional change, but also a bodily change, right?

[00:21:20] Like your body is reacting to that memory differently after the therapy, but your mind is too, right? Both. Yeah. Yeah. So the lady that I just did want, I just cleared her target after like six sessions, which is really pretty fast because we caught it. She got in a car accident and came to me like two weeks later and she was having trouble getting in her car and thinking about driving and would panic when she was driving. And so after, after the EMDR, she remembered the car accident.

[00:21:50] She could get in the car. She had all the memories of it, but it wasn't creating this physiological response in her and it wasn't creating this emotional response in her. So it's like a memory, like what I ate for lunch yesterday. Right. It has as much of a, as a charge as that once it's been reprocessed.

[00:22:09] So then you can think of, so kids that have been sexually abused after they've reprocessed that they're able to talk about the sexual abuse and know that it happened, but they're not going to get overwhelmed with feelings. They're not going to get flooded with emotions. They're not going to be able, they're not going to have this like panic attacks, somatic experience. They're just going to be able to talk about it. Like talking about the book that they read. So it kind of, the way I'm taking it is it kind of takes the emotion out of it. Right.

[00:22:39] In a way. I mean. Yeah. But you have to, but you have to process the emotion. So it doesn't, you have to go through it to get to the other side. You can't bypass it. But I can see what you're saying, where it takes that emotional charge. Cause like, like I said, if we think about bad things, sometimes those emotions come pouring back in, but you're saying after the therapy, we could think about it and not have that whole influx of emotion. Hopefully. Yeah. So.

[00:23:06] Well, the cool thing is that a lot of times with trauma, people forget years. So they're like, Oh, I forgot everything that happened from five to 10. I have no memories or somebody that they love dies. And they only have the image of that person passing away and dying in that process of dying. And then once you process the EMDR, all of these positive memories start coming back. All of these locked away memories, these things that are like, all of a sudden they start having all of these memories and they all start popping back up.

[00:23:35] So all of a sudden they've blocked out ages five to 10. And as they're accessing these, these difficult memories, all of these positive memories are coming back to not always, but a lot of the time. You make me think of my mom because she can't remember her childhood. And I know there was a lot of trauma there, but she says that whole thing is gone pretty much. She has a few memories, but not many. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:00] Have you had people like that, that the whole, not just five years, but a whole section of life is gone? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and then I had somebody that was in their thirties come to me this, this week that said they, they don't like recall the last six years. Oh, wow. Right. That recent, they can recall things that are earlier, but they've lost six years.

[00:24:23] And so, yeah, there's people that don't remember any of their childhood or they only have like little blips and little pieces and maybe those aren't very good. So what would you say? Like mom always says, maybe it's a good thing. I don't remember it. So what would you say to that? I mean, do people find bad things that they wish they hadn't found out or is it generally? Yeah, it can happen.

[00:24:47] It can like, this is one of the risks that we talk about when we're doing EMDR is that the, you might access things, memories that pop up. And we can't a hundred percent verify if they're accurate or not. I mean, they usually are, but it's up to that person to decide if it's accurate or not. And so it, what I say is like, we do a lot on the front end before I even do EMDR with somebody. Like I need to make sure that they aren't disassociating. I need to understand them.

[00:25:16] I need to make sure that they trust me, that we have a relationship, that they, I need to figure out like their tolerance level. And so there's all this before we even go into it. And then, yeah, you need to be slow and methodical and, but it can, I always warn people, it can kick up some dust. So when you're going in there and we need to be really stable before we even go into EMDR, because it can kick up some dust and it can kick up some things that make it more difficult.

[00:25:44] And that's a possibility, right? Because if you haven't thought about the sexual abuse and you've locked it away in a closet for 40 years and, or 50, 60 years. And then all of a sudden you're kicking that up. It's, it's now it's alive and active and present in that moment. But the amount of relief that people get after they've processed through some of the traumas, it's amazing where they are telling me, you know, I've never been, I've never felt so happy. I've never felt so free.

[00:26:14] I've never felt this joyful. I've never, you know, so there's this range, I think too, where if we lock away the negative emotions, we're locking away the positive ones too. So as deep as we can go is also as high as we can fly, if that makes sense. So is that because people block out whole time periods? So they're losing the good and the bad, or what do you mean by if you lock out the negative, you're also locking?

[00:26:41] Well, if you're shutting, if you're shutting out your emotions, if you're shutting out anger and sadness and hurt and pain, if you're just shutting it out and you're shutting the door on it, you're also shutting as, as far down as those emotions go. You're also shutting out all the opposite. It's like the yin yang, like the, the opposite of like all of the higher expressions.

[00:27:03] So you're also tampering down your joy and your fulfillment and your satisfaction and your happiness because you're dampering down your emotions in general. So you don't see people that like have trauma that's pretty severe and they're, and I don't see them at least. And then they're really like joyful, happy in a way that's not masking or in a way that's not people pleasing.

[00:27:30] Like if they're truly, truly joyous, they have the ability to tap into that pain as well. They have that ability to tap into those hard emotions as well. So I heard you say with the woman that had the car wreck that she, hers went pretty fast, like six sessions. How many for the average person, how many sessions just roughly does it take? Or is it just so random? There's people that I talked to that go to therapists for years and years and years.

[00:27:57] I can just, it depends, it depends on the trauma. I'm dealing with a lot of like really deep traumas with people that they've been carrying for like 30, 40 years. They're pretty intense, like neglect, abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, things like that. And I would say that would take years. I would say with the average EMDR target, you're looking at six months. It just depends on how big it is. And then also sometimes some people aren't ready for a big target.

[00:28:26] So we do like a smaller one first. Right. Tackle the little thing. But typically with EMDR, you do the first, first, worst, and most recent. So you go to the first, like four years old, five years old, seven years old. Like you go to the first one. Okay. That's interesting. So what kind of research is there on this or is there? It's one of the most researched scientifically backed modalities out there.

[00:28:55] I mean, there's probably more data in science on EMDR than any. It was approved for like Vietnam veterans. So they use it in the VA. And so it is really, really effective for trauma. But I would encourage people if they were looking at all the different modalities, EMDR is the one that has the most science behind it, the most data, which is interesting because it's only been around since like the really late 80s, early 90s. So it really started kind of gaining traction in the early 90s. It hasn't been around that long as far as modalities.

[00:29:24] And it's super powerful, really powerful. And so I see people that have worked with talk therapists for years and they haven't gotten anywhere. And then they come into EMDR and like things start to move. Or it's like, why does this depression keep coming back over and over again? Why is this anxiety keep coming back? Like, why are we cycling in and out of depression? Or what is it that we're looking at 30 years of anxiety and it's just getting worse? Or relationships continue to fall apart.

[00:29:53] And so what is this pattern of this relationship falling apart over and over and over again? So if I heard you correctly, you're saying they're actually using this to help veterans with PTSD? Or, and it seems to be working for them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's excellent. Wow. That's huge, isn't it? I mean. Yeah, it's one of the, it's the best modality that I know of for PTSD. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:23] Yeah. So that was like the modality that they were using at the VA. Yeah, it's, it's so powerful. It's so cool to like see somebody that's paralyzed with like a fear or, or depression and then have it really like, disappear, change their life. Like they have a new frame of reference. It's not just the trauma, but it's like, what is the negative association that goes with the trauma? Well, it's that I can't trust others or I'm unlovable or I'm not worthy. And we're working with that.

[00:30:53] We're changing that too. We're not just, we're not just changing the trauma. We're working with the negative belief that the person has about themselves in association with the trauma. So when you clear the trauma, you're working with that belief and clearing that belief. That's pretty cool. So you, so whatever core belief stemmed from that, that people are reliving constantly typically gets cleared up too. Yeah.

[00:31:18] But, and then it's like the, the, you know, the best, the bet, like the fastest way it works is for somebody that has a, something like a car accident or something happens. And all of a sudden there, or a boating accident or something like that. And they see or witness something, or they're part of something that's really traumatic. And then the faster you catch it after that, which is why they would do EMDR with natural disasters or something with like 9-11. They would go down there and do EMDR with people.

[00:31:46] The faster you do it after some big trauma like that, then the faster it clears. Is that? It's super effective. Is that partially because like, say it happened in childhood. We, I mean, I know the brain constantly tries to confirm things and everything that happens. Yep. I knew it. Yeah. You know what I mean? So we're constantly confirming whatever this trauma is for decades. Right. So is that part of it? Do you think? Yeah. I think it's just, yeah, I'm not sure.

[00:32:15] I'm not sure why, to be honest, but I know like with kids, EMDR works awesome, super fast. So whereas an adult, you're trying to clear a target or a belief where they've, like you said, they've carried around for decades. Maybe this kid's only walked around with it for a year or two. Maybe they think they're stupid. Maybe the kid calls them stupid and they believe it. And then you do their brains are so malleable and they haven't held that trauma for so long.

[00:32:40] So I think with the traumas that are recent, I think it hasn't formed this strong neural pathway yet. Right. Yeah. That's pretty interesting. So if somebody is listening and they're considering this kind of therapy, what should they look for in a therapist? I mean, what kind of training? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would get an EMDRIA, EMDRIA, EMDRIA approved therapist for sure. That's like the cream of the crop and everybody should really be EMDRIA approved.

[00:33:08] If they're certified EMDR therapists, that's even better because they've gone through more rigorous training, but definitely like an EMDRIA approved. And then I just think you need to just find something that you like. Like so if somebody is looking for a therapist, I would say interview three or four people and talk to them and see if you connect with them.

[00:33:28] If you click with them, if you like them, if they feel good, if you're talking to them and you're getting agitated or upset, or you don't feel like you're being heard, or do you feel like your nervous system's humming and you want to spend more time with them? And so don't just pick one person. Some people look great on paper and maybe they're not great. So kind of interview your therapist in a way or? Yeah, for sure.

[00:33:51] I mean, I get consultations all the time and I, some therapists don't do them, but I'm like, I, I want to see if I click with that person too. And I want to make sure they click with me and that we're a good fit for each other. And so, yeah, go to three or four therapists and interview them and see if you like them. And if you speak the same language. Yeah, I can see that because if, if you don't click, how could you trust this person? And then I couldn't see going into a therapy like that without the trust. You know what I mean? I don't think it would be effective for one thing, but yeah.

[00:34:21] Yeah. And if you're with the therapist and it doesn't feel right, like talk to your therapist about it. And if it doesn't resolve, then change. Some people stick with the therapist that they're not comfortable with for a really long time or. Really? Even though they're not comfortable? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, oh, they're not right, but they're okay. And so I always check in with my clients after, I don't know, every like five or six sessions. I'm like, how are you? How are things going? Like with us, how are you feeling about the work we're doing?

[00:34:51] Are we still on the same track? Like, do we, are we still working on the same thing that they want to work on? Are we on the same? I want them to know that they're in control, that we can change targets. Does it feel good? Is there anything that needs to be worked out? And so somebody will say, I don't want to do EMDR anymore. And I'm like, okay, well, let's talk about that. And then I honor that. And I, you know, there's some people that don't want to do it. And then we don't. And we're like, okay, we don't do that. Or we can go back when you're ready and that's fine. Or I don't want to work on this target right now. I want to go to this target. And it's okay. Great. We'll do that.

[00:35:21] So if someone did have triggers, like we talked about the person who somebody told them they didn't like their dress and it bothered them more than it should have. Do you notice as they're going through these sessions, like, do they realize like, hey, somebody said something nasty to me today, but it didn't bother me. Like it would have four sessions ago. Or do you get feedback like that sometimes? Or do they notice? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I'm just thinking of like one I had today where my client's usually triggered

[00:35:51] by anger and all of a sudden she's able to like process things with her partner without, without anger coming up. And so as, as you learn more about yourself and your system and how your system responds and reacts, then you'll start to notice your interactions with people change. Or I have a person I'm working with that has trouble speaking up and using their voice. Right. And now they're able to, now they're starting to stand up themselves and use their voice

[00:36:19] and, and stand in their power a little bit more as they start to know themselves more. And so, yeah, for sure. I see that. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I don't know. It's a lot to process even just talking about it because so many things start popping in your mind, but it's very interesting for sure. So what do you feel like, did you go through EMDR therapy yourself at all? Or it's just something that you have got? So.

[00:36:44] Yeah, no, I, I both, yeah, I do it and I've done it and it's, it's well, and everybody accesses it differently. So I'm not very, like, I have trouble getting in touch with my like feelings and, and so somatic work is difficult for me to access. But as soon as I started doing EMDR, I go into like this full somatic experience. And typically I'm not a big crier. I don't really cry a lot, but you put me in EMDR and I'm like crying and I'm processing and I'm feeling things.

[00:37:13] And the cool thing about EMDR is you don't necessarily have to talk about the trauma. So say somebody was like a Vietnam vet and they saw something horrendous. I could do EMDR with them and they can come back and they don't have to give me a play by play of everything that's happening. But as we're doing the EMDR, it's changing this, the parts of the brain are starting to speak to each other and they're starting to have movement.

[00:37:39] So they don't need to actually speak everything for targets to move, which is kind of nice. It is nice because I, like I said, I feel like a lot of people might not want to fully relive. I mean, it's like, you don't forget it's there, but you don't want to fully relive that trauma, of course. So it's nice to know that maybe you don't have to go that as deep. I mean, I think like, it's all about trust with the therapist.

[00:38:06] And so as you build that relationship and as you trust that therapist, and as you know, that they're going to be like there and they're going to make sure that you're safe and they're going to stop if it's too much. And that's our job is to make sure that we make sure our clients feel safe and comfortable. And so if they're getting flooded by emotion and it's, they're disassociating, like that's not therapeutic. And so we'd stop and kind of bring them back to safety and then go back into it. So we don't push. Nobody should push anybody into something that's uncomfortable.

[00:38:35] And then the client always has the ability to say like, stop, that's too much. I don't want to do this. Right. I give them the full, I give them full reign to do that. If it gets to be too much, like you can be crying through and that's okay. But if it feels like too much and let's just stop, like if it doesn't feel tolerable, we're not going to go there. Therapeutic. And I don't want them to dread coming to therapy. Right. It needs to be helpful and not this thing that they hate every week. Right. And so I think that's why it's important to interview the therapist, make sure you like them,

[00:39:04] make sure you're comfortable where you can let your guard down. And it, and sometimes some people do that really quickly and other people, it takes months for them to develop trust and those that's okay. It's whenever they're ready. But I find that when people trust me, all the things that they've never told anybody else, they'll start kind of like sharing and feeling comfortable with. And there's something really healing in sharing that and not having to carry it themselves. Oh, I'm sure.

[00:39:34] Is EMDR a therapy where you always do it with a licensed therapist or is it something like I've seen the tapping, some people tap if something happens and they're not with a therapist, but you would always do this with a therapist, right? Well, tapping there's EFT tapping, which I think emotional freedom tapping. Like I think, I think there's something good about that and that anybody can do. There's all seven points in your body and you can tap. And I think that's healing and you don't need a therapist to do that to yourself.

[00:40:03] But if you are working with an EMDR therapist, they absolutely should be licensed. There's no coach that should be doing that. If you're working with a ton of trauma and you can re-traumatize people if you don't know what you're doing and you can cause more harm than good. So that's why you need to like really have that trust built. You need to make sure that they're not disassociating. You need to understand their process. You need to understand their window of tolerance and their coping skills.

[00:40:28] Like you really need to know a lot about trauma so that you hold it well and that those, the people that you're working with feel safe all the time. They need to feel safe. For people who don't know, what does disassociation mean? Like checking out. So if you think about like getting on your phone after work and like sitting on the couch and scrolling on your phone for two hours, then all of a sudden it feels like two hours felt like 10 minutes. Like that's disassociating, but checking out and drinking is disassociating, but I'll talk

[00:40:57] to people and all of a sudden they'll say like, what did you say? And not like a ADHD moment. What do you say? But like they kind of space out or they, they kind of zone out or they feel like they're floating or they feel like they're kind of like standing behind themselves. They feel out of their body a bit. And that's really common with trauma. And so the opposite of being fully embodied. So how do people know when they're healed from this? Or do you, are you ever really healed? I mean, I don't know how to word that.

[00:41:27] Yeah. I have, people feel good. People feel, I discharge people when they're ready. Like I, my goal is to like. You just feel relieved? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. It's like the depression lifts or the anxiety lifts or the burden lifts or they're, you know, like there's a lightness to them. And yeah, it was just, the goal is to discharge people. The goal isn't to have clients for years. Some people need that and that's fine.

[00:41:53] But the goal is to discharge them and you discharge them when they feel like embodied. And so when I think of like, when I think of anxiety, depression, PTSD, a lot of other mental health issues, there's a disembodiment. They're checked out. They're not in their body. They're not speaking their truth. They're not standing in their power. They don't aren't, they aren't able to access their light, their gifts, their creativity, their strengths. They're not standing in their power and that's, or they're disconnected from themselves.

[00:42:23] And when they're disconnected from themselves, they're disconnected from others. And so that's that disembodied piece. And so when I work with them, I want to get them embodied. I want to get them fully embodied, speaking their truth, standing in their power, knowing their strengths, feeling the confidence. Like we have our days where we don't feel that and we all do, but for the most part,

[00:42:47] like just feeling confident in or out of relationships, doing what they love and releasing the things that don't serve them anymore. I'm wondering if events like COVID can cause trauma too, because I know a few people that are still purposely not isolating themselves out of fear of getting sick, but they were just so used to the isolation that they're still isolated. Does that make sense?

[00:43:14] And I'm wondering if it, I mean, my, my guess would be that they are struggling with depression would be my guess. And they're disconnected from themselves and they're disconnected from other people. And my guess was that it wasn't just COVID that there was something going on before COVID and COVID made it like, it was like a slam dunk for it. But I don't think if somebody was like the epitome of mental health wellness, that COVID would take them down and keep them down.

[00:43:43] So there's obviously something that is keeping them disconnected and withdrawn from society. And we know that's not healthy to do that. Right. I was just curious because they, the, the ones I know, they say it came from COVID. So that's why I was wondering if an event like that, because we had never experienced anything like that, if that can cause trauma or, but to your point, maybe it was COVID and going on long before then. Yeah. I haven't heard that from a lot of my clients. Okay.

[00:44:13] That was like the thing that took them down. But yeah, I wouldn't think, I would think that there was something going on before then. Okay. Or there's something else. Yeah. I was just curious. So I want to give you some time to talk about your podcast or your MDR, EMDR practice or whatever you want to tell us about. Yeah. Well, yeah, I have a podcast that's called the connected community exploring possibility. It's on YouTube and all the audio platforms.

[00:44:42] And I just interviewed people like you do that I think are really interesting that have stories to tell. And my, my goal is to go 10, 10 layers deeper than the normal podcast. And so there's a lot of like therapy modalities on there. There's a lot about plant medicine. There's a lot about health and wellness and fitness and GLP ones and cold plunges and like all kinds of topics, cacao and things like that. And so that, yeah, I love that. And then, yeah, I'm licensed in Arizona, California and Massachusetts. So I can only service people in those states.

[00:45:12] Say the states again, California, Arizona, Colorado, and Massachusetts. Oh, okay. Yeah. Of the states that I'm licensed in. And so if anybody's in those states, they can reach out. And then I have a website. It's where everything is in my website and it's Nikki, why yoga.com? So it's N I C K Y Y Y O G A.com three Y. And that has all my information.

[00:45:38] But if anybody wants to ask questions or reach out, or they want a referral to another therapist in their state, I'm happy to kind of help out with that, but psychology today is a really good platform for finding licensed therapists. Yeah, that's it. There was one thing I didn't ask you that I wanted to, and that's what, is there a time or a situation you can think of that somebody should not seek out EMDRs or like some kind of trauma or something that, that it wouldn't be a good fit for?

[00:46:08] I mean, or does it help most, most things? I mean, it helps most people. There are some contraindications, like you can't do the light movements if somebody has seizure disorder, but you could do like the other modalities, the tapping and things like that. And EMDR isn't just the reprocessing. So there's a lot of like teaching people skills and getting them ready for the EMDR. So some people might not even do EMDR for a year, but you're teaching them different skills

[00:46:34] and how to like calm the body and things like that and prepping them for EMDR. So I think I imagine if somebody is having like a serious mental psychosis, illness, things like that, we wouldn't do EMDR. Right. I think if somebody is highly disassociated most of the time or they have a dissociative disorder that then they would need to go to somebody that's like super highly specialized in that area. But I feel like it's good for most people. I do.

[00:47:00] And there's a lot in that preparation part where we teach different methods of like, and some work better than others for people where we teach them methods to calm the nervous system and get them back in themselves and get them prepared and ready for it. That's awesome. Well, I thank you for being with us today and sharing your wisdom. And yeah, thank you. It's been a fascinating conversation. I've always been curious about EMDR, but I didn't, like I said, I didn't know a whole

[00:47:30] lot about it. Just I heard about it as an option. So thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Bye. Bye. As we wrap up this episode, a big thank you to Nikki for helping us understand EMDR and the way old wounds can show up in everyday life. One takeaway I hope stays with you, a belief you've carried for years doesn't have to define the rest of your story.

[00:47:56] You'll find Nikki's information in her podcast, The Connected Community, Exploring Possibility in the show notes. If this conversation resonated with you, share it with someone who needs it and follow the beauty in the mess. Until next time, remember, even in the middle of life's greatest struggles, there is still beauty to be found in the mess. As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend.

[00:48:26] Thank you for listening to the beauty in the mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend. And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyinthemess.com. Thanks for listening.