Ep. 167 When Marriage Becomes a To-Do List: Finding Your Way Back to Each Other with Katie Doles

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:33] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. What happens when the very qualities that make you successful at work start working against you at home? My guest today is Katie Doles, founder of Rooted Wife Coaching and a marriage strategist who works with high achieving Christian women. And Katie has a fascinating background. She has a master's in mathematics and has been a professional acrobat, ballroom dancer, teacher, recruiter, and math academy director. Today we talk about why you can't manage your life in a way to do it.

[00:01:05] What happens when you change your husband like an employee. What happens when one spouse takes control and the other begins stepping back. And how resentment, busyness, unrealistic expectations, and simply living as roommates can slowly steal the connection from marriage. We also get into intimacy, date nights, creating a home that actually feels peaceful, the importance of community, and how Katie's Christian faith shapes the way she approaches love, forgiveness, grace, and marriage.

[00:01:30] So whether your marriage is thriving, coasting, or somewhere in between, I think there's something here for you. Hi, I'm Michele Simms, your host. I'm just a regular person who, like so many others, has faced my fair share of messes. Life hasn't always been neat or easy, but it's taught me a lot. And somewhere along the way, I got deeply curious.

[00:01:50] How do other people make it through their messes and not just survive, but thrive? That started my pursuit. I started searching for stories, wisdom, and real strategies, not only for myself, but for anyone looking for a better way forward. Maybe there's a faster way, a softer way, a more human way, and maybe we don't have to figure it out alone. I believe we grow through shared stories, lived wisdom, and the beautiful mess of being human.

[00:02:14] So welcome to the conversation. I'm so glad you're here. Please join me for episode 167 of The Beauty in the Mess, called When Marriage Becomes a To-Do List, Finding Your Way Back to Each Other with Katie Dooles. So without further ado, let's get into it. Hi, Katie. Welcome to The Beauty and the Mess. I'm so glad to have you with me today. Thank you, Michelle. I'm happy to be here.

[00:02:39] Awesome. Now, I know you're a marriage strategist, but before we kind of dig into what that really means, would you mind going back and telling us some of your story, like what led you to become a marriage strategist?

[00:02:51] Yeah, great question. So my background is not necessarily what you would call standard. So I have my whole life, I have always been a very big fan of marriage. I call myself the biggest fan of marriage you'll ever meet. No one has convinced me otherwise.

[00:03:09] So I've just always loved marriage and believed in marriage. And from a young age, I was always preparing for marriage and thinking about like how I can proactively have the most beautiful marriage ever. And that has always been my goal. Before I was married, while I'm married, I always have the most beautiful marriage ever.

[00:03:32] And so I would think about like how, like what my dream guy would want from me. I would learn from everyone I could. I asked for tons of advice from tons of people my whole life. And then eventually I got married and got to put the work to practice. And it's been amazing. And I've learned so much. I didn't learn or it's always a little bit more clumsy when you're actually doing it.

[00:04:02] But it's been just such an amazing journey. And I love it. I've been married nine years. So my original career path was in math. And I still am involved in math teaching. And I that's one of the reasons why I specifically cater to high achieving women, because I really relate to that sort of like, let's go do a million things. Let's be productive. Let's get let's just achieve everything we can.

[00:04:32] But I've always just been thinking with marriage, I'm like, I really just want to help people have beautiful marriages because I meet people and I see, unfortunately, couples that get divorced of both good people. And I'm just like, why? Why is this happening? Marriage should be just beautiful and life giving. And I just want everyone to have that. And so I was thinking to myself years ago, what do I really, really want to do?

[00:05:01] What sort of legacy do I want to leave? And it's I really just want to help people have beautiful marriages. And so that's how I got into this. I love that whole concept for sure. The first thing I'm thinking of, though, is since you thought about this from such a young age that you wanted a beautiful marriage, did you have like you said, the perfect guy. You kind of fantasized about him. Did you have standards for him that when you met the real life guy, he had to meet these standards?

[00:05:31] Oh, yeah, I had a list like anyone else. And I think something unique I did was I took the list that I made of like what I wanted my guy. And I looked on the other side of the paper. I wrote, what would this guy want in me? Oh, wow. So that became my to do list. But yeah, I definitely had a list. And some of the I would say that my husband met the important things on the list, more like the character traits and stuff.

[00:06:00] Some of the things were a little bit more like not that important. Like I wanted him to speak Russian, but oh, well, not so important. He's everything I didn't know I need as well. So it was beyond what I expected. That's awesome. So I know you're a Christian also. How much did your faith play into this? Oh, it's a huge part. I think that's just it's so central to my life.

[00:06:25] My marriage and the gospel of Jesus Christ are the two most important things in the world to me. And I just really believe that marriage is ordained of God. And I believe that I mean, the Bible talks a lot about marriage and the sanctity of it. And I just think it's one of God's greatest gifts to men and our mankind. And I think it's just such a beautiful union of two.

[00:06:51] And it's like how we can it's probably one of the best ways that we can become more Christlike and learn more about godly love is through marriage. So I just it's very integral to my faith. And I believe that marriage is meant to last. And it's not just like a temporary thing. It's not a contract. It's a covenant.

[00:07:14] Exactly. And do you feel like in your practice that faith people of the same faith kind of tend to the marriage tends to last versus people who don't have faith? I mean, because I'm just thinking I would want to honor my faith and my husband. And so that I'm more likely to work harder to keep it together than someone who didn't have those constraints. Do you feel that way or? Yeah, I definitely think it makes a big difference.

[00:07:43] Because it's just like, if you're aligned on the really core principles, then it really just makes a lot of things a lot easier. Because your priorities need to align. Something I loved what my grandpa said once when I was asking him for advice as a kid about marriage. He said it's like two circles. If you have two circles, if they're not connected at all, if they have nothing in common, they're just going to drift apart.

[00:08:12] If they have everything in common, then you're not really any better than just one person. But if you are connected and linked on the most important things, then you span a lot of space, but you also stay connected. And so I think having the most important things in common, which for me, I can't think of anything more important than the faith. And then that really helps link you together.

[00:08:41] In fact, in my book, I talk about how Christ is the overlapping link in marriage. Absolutely. I'm a Christ follower as well. And I feel like it's a huge part of my life. Not just the marriage, but everything. Yeah, it dictates everything. It's amazing. And it's just such a great example for everything we do. Absolutely. I'm kind of curious. Like, I know you have this strong math background and you teach math. And that's a very logic.

[00:09:10] I love math myself, but it's a very logical mindset, right? Everything's black and white. And then you transition to a marriage strategist where everything is not black and white and there's emotions involved. And so how does that translate for you as far as the thinking aspect of it? Yeah, it does sound like it doesn't necessarily connect, but I feel like they actually go really well together.

[00:09:36] Because math is very much looking for patterns and trying to solve problems. And especially as you get into higher level mathematics, it gets super creative. Some people think math is not a creative subject, but it is. And so learning how to kind of approach things in different ways is really fascinating. And I just love that sort of strategy. That's why I call myself a marriage strategist.

[00:10:03] It's kind of the logic of relationships and looking at patterns and things like that. Obviously, every person is so different and every relationship is so unique. And I never claim to be the expert on someone else's life because obviously there's a lot of nuance. It's like no one knows your marriage as well as you do. And you're the expert on your own marriage. But there are patterns that a lot of marriages follow. There's a lot of patterns in how human behavior works.

[00:10:32] And so learning those patterns and trying to apply those into married life is really fun. I'm also interested in, you said you serve high-achieving women. And to me, the high-achieving women have a very, I don't want to say they're all a personality, but they're very driven, very goal-oriented, very much in control. How does that play in the marriage?

[00:11:02] I mean, do you see most of your clients come into the marriage with those same characteristics? Or are they different at home versus at work? Yeah, that's a very interesting sort of aspect of it. And it's something that I relate to very strongly because a lot of the times, yeah, those high-achievers, they're very in control of everything in their lives. They're very, like, you have the list, you have the goals, you have everything.

[00:11:30] And so very structured, very powerful. And unfortunately, that same persona doesn't generally work in a marriage. You can't really control your husband. You can't really treat him like you would your employees. I've made that mistake, and it is not very great. And so, yeah, you have to kind of take a totally different persona at home because, like, for

[00:11:55] instance, vulnerability is not really something valued in the workforce or in, like, high-impact community roles, but it is very valuable in marriage. And so I think especially for high-achieving women, it is really important to learn how to flip that switch and change from, like, the productive, accomplished, powerful woman to the more loving, vulnerable wife that treats her husband as, like, an equal partner rather than

[00:12:24] a boss-employee dynamic. Do you think that's one of the main problems that you see is that she comes home with the same energy she has at work and he's like, hey, that's too much? Is that what most of them struggle with? I mean, I feel like a lot of women do tend to boss their husbands around a lot and or try to kind of take charge of things.

[00:12:51] And I mean, if you're working with a nice guy, he'll usually let you kind of take control of him. And I'm a control freak. So I am very much not perfect in this, but I've been working on it for years. That sort of, like, let me just take control. I know what I'm doing. Just do what I say and everything will be great. And so learning to let that go is a little tough. Right. Yeah. I would think that would be one of the bigger struggles. Yeah.

[00:13:21] So is that what you mean by don't be the project manager at home? I know you talked to that. Is that what you're referring to, bringing those personality traits home? Yeah. Yeah. So don't try to be, like, your husband's manager and, yeah, treating, trying not to have that same sort of dynamic. I think that's a really common difficulty.

[00:13:47] And one of the interesting things that I've observed is that a lot of the times it kind of sets into a negative spiral because the women will try to, like, step up, take control of things. And then the husbands will be like, oh, she's got control of everything. Okay. And then he'll step back. And then the woman's like, oh, my gosh, you're not doing anything. You're so lazy. Now I have to step up more. And he's like, oh, she's taking charge of more. Cool. I'll just step back more.

[00:14:17] And so it just makes for a lot of frustration. And I know many times my husband was like, I was going to try to help you, but then you kind of were like, it looked like you had everything in control or you did it before I could get to it. And so learning to let that go and not keep such a tight grip on everything and not have

[00:14:41] everything done your way is something that I think helps a lot with the relationship. And I know it's something that I've had to learn a lot as well over the years. That's interesting because I have heard a lot of women say, if I don't do it, no one will. Right. And hearing you say the more she steps up, the more he kind of steps back. But I think you also said a key component in there too.

[00:15:05] And that was your husband communicated, hey, I would have had you not done this or if you would have allowed me. Most people don't have that communication from what I observe. And I think that's one of the keys is if one person communicates to the other, we just do and assume that we don't communicate how we're really feeling or. Yeah. Yeah. So it's great that he said something. It's true. Right. People tend to be terrible mind readers.

[00:15:34] And I'm very blessed to be married to someone who is very good at communication. I'm the poor communicator between the two of us. My husband is very, very good at expressing things and helping me express things too. And I think that's important to have that sort of ability to discuss like where you are and understand each other for sure.

[00:15:59] So how hard is it if people are in that situation where she stepped up and he's kind of taken the back seat, but she doesn't realize it's because of the way she presents herself or the way she takes control. How easy is that to undo? Because is it just getting to the communication part and then both sides realizing what's happening or is it a lot more than that? I would say it's probably more than that.

[00:16:26] I don't think that a conversation is going to fix the problem because I think the longer the habit is cemented, the longer it takes to correct it. And so I think that when you're trying to correct that sort of thing, I would say start with just not doing everything. Like I feel like so much of what some, especially with high achievers, we feel like we can't let anything go.

[00:16:54] We want to have everything perfect. It's like, I need to have a perfectly clean house. I need to excel at work. I need to volunteer in the community. I need to take care of the kids. And there's just so many things and it's really hard to keep up with all that. And so I feel like a lot of times just not doing stuff, like actually letting things go almost creates like a little opening for the husband to step up.

[00:17:23] I know earlier on in our marriage, I would control most of the operations in the household. And eventually I stopped doing certain things and my husband started doing them. And I'm like, oh, that's great. And I mean, it won't necessarily work like that. It won't be magic that he just does everything you don't do because he prioritizes different things than you do.

[00:17:47] But realizing that he's a capable adult and treating him like a capable adult really tends to help him step up. Yeah, that's very interesting. I know I assume a lot of the rules around the house and I'm just, I'm thinking he's not going to step up, but maybe I just never give him the opportunity to do so. I'm going to have to do some experimenting. Yeah.

[00:18:14] I mean, it's, it sometimes can be a little rocky at first, like maybe for an example, like gift giving, handling, gifting to like his family or something. And it's like, I used to take care of all that. And then I'm like, and I'm not going to buy any presents for your family anymore. So I don't care what happens, but like, I'm not doing that.

[00:18:38] So I don't think it was that rude, but having that sort of conversation of like, this is something that stresses me out. Is that something that you can take? And who cares if he doesn't do it well? I don't have to do it. And that's something, an attitude I try to take on from that I learned as an academy director is I can't do everything. So if it's not me doing it, then it's great.

[00:19:06] And so I would take, and so I tried to say that a lot with my employees. It's like, oh, you're doing it. That's great. I don't have to do it. Great. I love it. And trying to take that same sort of approach with my husband. It's like, oh, cool. You're handling it. That's great. I don't, I don't care how you do it. I don't like, if you're the one doing it, do it your way. I love it. And I think that's the other part that's hard to let go of, right? Because we have, if we're the one always doing, we have a certain standard or expectation

[00:19:35] of how we want it done. And when they do step up, you can't, you have to let go of that expectation. And I think, well, yeah, it's like something as silly as folding towels. I fold it one way. He folds it another way. So I've now just started giving him that task. I take a whole armful of towels in and hand it to him. And it drives me crazy deep down that he's, he folds it differently. But I think, you know what? He's folding him. He's putting him in the linen closet.

[00:20:05] I'm good. So I think you have to, and if I were to criticize him and harp on that he didn't fold the way I, he would probably just shut down and not do it at all. Right. So I think women have to let go of that expectation. Like you said, that somebody else is taking care of it. You're just going to be happy with it. And I'm just using that as an example. It doesn't, it bothered me at first. It doesn't bother me anymore. I'm just glad he's helping. Yeah.

[00:20:32] And that's something I've had to learn because I am so particular about everything, which is why I had to do everything. And because like anything he tried to help with, I'm like, no, no, no, you're doing it wrong. Go away. Like, I'll do it. And that wasn't great. Like, I remember he like grabbed a pot to cook dinner and I literally took the pot out of his hand and handed him the pot I wanted him to use. I'm like, really? He's making dinner.

[00:20:58] Or like, why am I making him use a different pot? It's like so petty. And it's hard though. And I think it's because we just set these, I don't know what you call them standards, I guess. And that's the way we expect it to be done, but you really can't do that. Yeah. And often the one who's most particular about a chore is the one who has to do it. And so like, I saw that in my family growing up, the more picky one did the chore.

[00:21:27] And I was like, well, if you want to do less, be less picky. Exactly. So if people have been in these kind of routines for a while and resentment starts to set in, is that still undoable? Can you still fix it if one party or both are resentful of the other? Yeah, I think, I feel like there's a lot that can be come back from.

[00:21:53] I mean, I have kind of a very unique perspective in the sense that my husband and I have always had a great marriage, but we have not always had a great relationship, which is because when we were dating, we had a terribly nasty breakup. And there was like no way we were ever getting back together. But then we did. And now we have a great marriage. So I guess we got our fighting out of the way or something. So yeah, I feel like that.

[00:22:21] And so I know just knowing that I had been there and been like, had told him to his face, I'll never trust you again. And like, I don't like you anymore, all that stuff. It's like, we came back stronger than ever from that. And so I feel like there's a lot of hope that people can come back from things. And I've observed people come back from very challenging circumstances. And I feel like that's very inspiring.

[00:22:51] And what I try to do is help people before they get too sunk into those things and try to be more preventative and proactive about a marriage rather than waiting till things are so bad that you need counseling. I was going to ask, so what is the line between a marriage strategist and a counselor or a therapist? Where's your scope of practice, so to speak?

[00:23:18] So I say that if your marriage is like between a four and a nine on a scale of one to 10, that's what I do. I like helping those, that range. If your marriage is really bad or like in general, like the more technical differentiation between therapy and coaching is therapists are dealing with more like trauma or with past experiences.

[00:23:44] And coaches are very forward looking, working on goals and creating, creating your vision for the future and trying to help you achieve that. So it's a lot more proactive, a little bit more future focused than let's go fix our problems from the past. Or let's try to unravel this mix of emotions that we've developed over the years.

[00:24:13] And that doesn't mean that I can't help with like some degree of resentment and helping that, but it's more let's try to build up from like the roommate business partner phase of we, we don't hate each other or anything and things aren't horrible, but we don't really like each other that much. And let's try to make that into something beautiful. Oh, wow. So I know you talk about logistics in marriage.

[00:24:40] Are you referring to like when, because what I always notice is people are very busy these days, right? We, and we're kind of programmed to be busy. We're being productive. We're workaholics. Then we have kids or grandkids that were taken here and there. They're in every sport imaginable. We're just very busy. Is that kind of what you're referring to that? We just get in a routine and that's how we live out our marriage? Or what are you talking about? Yeah, I think there's a lot of aspects that affect us.

[00:25:08] And that's one of the reasons why I have a six root framework. I like to think about the woman holistically because it's not just the marriage relationship that's a fact that affects the marriage. It's your home, your community, yourself, your faith, and trying to bring all those things together and helping approach the overwhelm. And I think that's a really real and difficult problem that a lot of people have with just

[00:25:38] the quantity of things on their plates and with the lack of community that we have nowadays and the lack of self-care. I mean, that's getting a little better, I think. But kind of having more awareness of like, you need to take care of yourself. You're going to burn out your engine if you just try to keep chugging along and never actually do any maintenance on yourself as a person.

[00:26:07] And then trying to simplify, I think, is really important. I'm a believer in simplification and I don't always practice it perfectly because I like to do more. But trying to realize what's most important, because if everything's a priority, then nothing's a priority. And so trying to make sure that what you're spending your time on is what actually matters to you and what will matter to you in five years or so.

[00:26:35] Do you think it's harder with couples that have kids or grandkids? Because I know everybody thinks their kid has to be in every sport there is. And I tend to think they don't, that one is good enough. So I just wonder how much that complicates things for couples. Yeah. And that is definitely something that can be difficult to navigate. And I don't have kids of my own, but I have an extensive teaching background.

[00:27:04] So I've observed a lot of kids and I came from a big family. So I'm very familiar with that just sheer quantity and the overcommitment of kids. And I feel like personally, kids need some free time. They need less stimulation in a lot of things. Like they have so much to do and so much stuff.

[00:27:30] And when I was growing up, we would spend hours just playing outside and we could just, we'd go to the park and we'd be good or we'd go to the backyard and we'd come in for dinner time. And I feel like it's also that sort of hyper-achieving sort of thing. We want to be able to do everything. And I had that drive as well as a kid. I wanted to learn a ton of different things, but it came from me.

[00:27:55] And I think also a benefit I had was that we couldn't afford to do all the many, many extracurriculars that some of the other kids did. So we had to pick. And I never felt like I was missing out with that because whatever, I would have one sport or one big thing I was doing and I could focus on that and I could really develop that skill.

[00:28:22] And I mean, I'd pick up other skills on the side or, but it was more driven by me as the child rather than my parents making me do stuff. And I feel like, especially when the kids are forced into it by parents, that is something that can be a little difficult. And yeah, I feel like let the kids drive what they do.

[00:28:48] And it's okay to let them or to make them select and not give them every single activity they want to do. Like it's okay to just reduce it and just stick to what matters most. And it'll help them learn how to make tough decisions because we can't have everything in life. We can't do everything and we can't have everything we want. So learning how to prioritize, I think is a good life skill. I do too.

[00:29:16] And I think a lot of children don't learn how to just be with themselves a little bit. You know what I mean? They always have to have stimulation, somebody around them. And so then when they're by themselves, it's anxiety, I guess is the key word these days. Yeah, it's true. It's like a totally different world than when I grew up. It's kind of crazy. I don't see kids playing pretend anymore. I'm like, is this a lost art? I think it is.

[00:29:46] I think you mentioned another key word also, which was the community, right? That around the marriage and since COVID, you see a lot more isolation. How much does that affect a marriage? I mean, is it that the husband and wife are dependent on each other for everything because there's no community in those situations? Or how is that affecting them? Do you feel?

[00:30:09] I think community really adds a lot to a couple's lives because I don't think that you can do, fit and fill every single social need that your spouse has. And it's not because you don't love each other or it's not because they're not good enough. It's just because you need more than one person in your life to care about you. You need different perspectives, different voices.

[00:30:38] And so I think that having a real community is so essential and it's so lost. People don't know how to have community anymore. And I know that we're technically in a loneliness epidemic, a very large one right now. And I find in my own experience in trying to build community, a lot of people are kind of resistant to it, which is weird because everyone needs it.

[00:31:08] But since we're so busy and we're so like packing the schedule with all these things that maybe aren't the top priorities for us, but we want to do everything, we lose that and we lose human connection. And the more we do that, the less connected we feel. And it's kind of a scary prospect of losing that sort of community feel because I think that's so essential. I do too.

[00:31:34] I think it's another outlet in a way for people, but I'm wondering how like beyond church for me, at least, or work, I mean, that seems like the only two places I'm at. So how do you develop community or create community outside of those two realms? What do you suggest to people? It takes a lot of bravery and a lot of patience and persistence.

[00:32:03] So I have my dearest friend besides my husband, she and I have had weekly calls for, I don't know, like seven or eight years or something like that. And even though we're thousands of miles apart, we are super close. And a few years back, I was like, how did that beautiful friendship happen? It's just like, I need to figure out the pattern and the template for this.

[00:32:28] And I realized that just making that regular time to spend time together, having scheduled time and just really getting to know each other, because it takes like 200 hours of time together to become best friends. So we need a lot of time with people to really, really become close.

[00:32:51] And so she actually, she went to Sweden once and she came back with this word called fika. And it's basically a term that means coffee, a friend and a treat. And it's like this little social thing that they do in Scandinavia to help just like have social connection on like a daily basis. And we were like, oh, this is us. We do fika. So I always call it my fika time with my friends.

[00:33:21] And I was like, I need to do this with more people. I need to create this sort of regular scheduled time with other folks so that we can do that. And it's hard to get it started sometimes. And you sometimes will, you have to be brave enough to ask a person to meet with you regularly. And sometimes they'll say yes. Sometimes they'll say no. Sometimes the cadence is less than ideal.

[00:33:49] Or sometimes they'll eventually wear off. But having that, creating that space and making that brave invitation to become friends and to spend time together is really beautiful. And the fika friends that I have, they're just such wonderful influences for me. And it really just happens with an invitation.

[00:34:16] And creating that sort of regularly scheduled time is just, I think it's really beautiful. And it gets better as you go on. And I think also, even before you get to fika, just making invitations to do things. It can be really scary. It can be hard. But having, just asking people to do stuff.

[00:34:42] So my husband and I try to reach out to someone every month and ask them to go on a double date with us. And like I said, it takes a lot of like bravery and persistence because a lot of the times people are like, oh yeah, sure. And then they never do anything. So like you have to keep trying because sometimes it really goes well. Sometimes people surprise you. I know one couple, my husband was like, oh, we should ask them to do a double date. I was like, I don't know if they would really like us.

[00:35:11] But it turned out they were great. And we had a fantastic time. We've had multiple double dates since. And so people can surprise you. But taking a chance and reaching out is scary but important. Oh, I agree. I think that one of the difficulties is even being in the situation to meet the potential friend, right? Because where are you going to find these people if you're not out and about?

[00:35:39] And you can't just walk up to somebody at the mall and say, hey, would you like to be friends? They're going to think you're crazy. So being in an environment regularly where you could meet these people, I think is, to me, would be the hardest part of what are those environments, right? Yeah, that's a good point. I realize I didn't answer that part of the question. And that's something I'm still trying to figure out more of is where to make these sorts of initial contacts.

[00:36:06] Because, yeah, church, work, those are the people you usually regularly interact with. And so I think it's about finding people with connections as well. Because as a business owner, I have engaged in a lot of networking. And small business owners are very social, very networking oriented. So it's been like a really good community.

[00:36:33] And people are really just good about like, oh, well, you like this. Have you met this person? And they just connect each other. So I think learning that sort of technique in giving people referrals for friendships or something. I like that idea. Like, oh, you would like this person. I mean, it's pretty amazing. Some people are just like, oh, I think you'd like this person. I'm like, cool. I've never met you, but hey, let's go meet up and talk.

[00:37:02] And then it's like, oh, yeah, you are really cool. So, yeah, maybe we need to referral network for friendships. I like that idea. Maybe that's another startup. Yeah. So I'm wondering, like, since we were talking about, you were talking about double dating, how important is it for the couple to just spend time alone together? Like, you know, going on a date, even though you're married. I hear that a lot.

[00:37:29] I don't think in almost 40 years, my husband and I might have done that once. Really? Yeah. So I'm wondering, well, we've always had kids and we still have kids around and parents to help. And you know what I mean? It's just I'm sure you have to set a scheduled time and say nothing's going to, outside of an emergency, is going to affect this. But we've never done that. So I'm just curious how important you feel that is. Oh, I'm a big fan of date night.

[00:37:57] One of, so I noticed that the recurring, as I mentioned, I interviewed people a lot growing up on their secrets to happy marriage. And date night came up a lot. And usually the things that come up the most are generally the most important. And so date night was always kind of something that we came into the marriage being like, yeah, we're going to do this. And so we have like a weekly budget for date night. And my husband religiously makes sure we keep to date night. He's like, what are we doing for date night this week?

[00:38:26] And we take turns planning it every week. So it's like my week, his week, and stuff like that. But, which it's great to have him keep me accountable because some weeks I'm like, oh yeah, I guess I need to do, I need to plan that. But I think it's really important to take time together and to set that as a priority. And it doesn't have to be anything fancy.

[00:38:50] I mean, date night could be going for a nice little stroll in the park or doing like sneaking a tub of ice cream into the room or stuff like that, watching movies. But I think being together is really important, especially when you have a lot of distractions going around because so many things in the world are kind of pulling us apart. And so we need something to pull us together.

[00:39:18] And I like to think of it as like a little mini Sabbath because we dedicate one day a week to the Lord. And so maybe for our most important relationship on earth, we could dedicate one evening a week to just be together. And I know it's hard for some people with different circumstances, but I think just trying to do something special together every week,

[00:39:42] I think is a really good oasis in keeping the connection alive and beautiful. I was going to say, do you feel like that nurtures intimacy for the couple? And I know you talk about intimacy or do you talk about spiritual, emotional, physical, all of the above? All of the above. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:03] So yeah, I think it really does help because you need time, you need alone time to nurture those sorts of things. And I think that building, I think spiritual, physical and emotional intimacy are very closely connected. There's been studies on physical intimacy and the people with the best experiences have very good emotional intimacy. No surprise there.

[00:40:30] So building that time and making it a priority and having just time together to talk about things. And I feel like that's one of the beauties of date night because it's hopefully distraction-free time where it's just you two. And so you can kind of, you can kind of bury your souls more easily. I mean, my husband and I love, this isn't date night technically, but we love doing little campfires on Sunday evenings.

[00:40:58] And something about a fire just makes you bury your soul. I don't know why, but it seems to be a role. You just talk about your dreams or things that are going on. And I think that having that alone time is a really good time to talk and dream. And that's just what gets us connected to people. So do you think if people start losing that intimacy, do you feel like it's the emotional intimacy that goes first? Or is it the physical?

[00:41:27] I mean, does one precede the other or? Hmm. I don't know if they come in an order, but they tend to go together. Yeah. So a lot of the times, like, and men and women will be slightly different. Like if the, like a lot of the times, for instance, if a man is not giving a woman the emotional intimacy she wants, she might not give him the physical intimacy he wants or vice versa.

[00:41:51] And so I feel like if you are really, if you really focus on one, the other will probably come. If you're both, it's so nuanced, so it's hard to say this in general.

[00:42:03] But I feel like they, they just go together so much that if you try to really have a giving mentality and a loving mentality and really try to understand and see the other's heart in either category, it'll help all the categories.

[00:42:26] Right. And I think I heard the other day that men feel loved through physical intimacy, but women feel loved through the emotional intimacy. And that's kind of, it can be a great thing, but it can also be a disconnect, right? So you have to work on nurturing that bond. Yeah. And like you said, some people will, if they're not getting what they want, they'll kind of withhold what the other one wants. And that just kind of creates another negative spiral.

[00:42:56] And so I think being freely giving to the other is something that I think really nurtures the relationship and inspires like a culture of giving in the marriage. Yeah. I've heard that a lot, but the more, the more you give, obviously the more you're going to receive back. And yeah, the marriage is the one place where we shouldn't be.

[00:43:21] I don't know what the word would be stingy or not giving because like you said, that's the most important relationship in your life other than with God and Jesus. So in the Holy spirit, but yeah, I know you talk about the home sanctuary. What do you mean by that? Like how, because home feels hectic sometimes. So how does home become a sanctuary or what do you mean? Yeah, that's a really good question.

[00:43:48] And I know that's something I tend to, of my rooted framework home, keeping the home into a sanctuary is like one of my biggest struggles. Cause it's just, there's always so much because there's so much to manage at home. And that's one of the reasons why I strive to be a minimalist is that just the reality of how much our home both gives and takes from our souls,

[00:44:15] because there's just so much to take care of and maintain. Like the silent to-do list people talk about is so real. It's like, I look at stuff and it's like, Oh, I need to take care of that. I need to dust that. I need to do that. Like there's just so much to do. And it's, and so creating a sanctuary, I think is about envisioning what you want for your home, what you want it to give you, what you want it to feel like.

[00:44:41] And then making a plan for that to happen and just kind of having sort of priorities of, well, it's really nice having all this stuff or atmosphere. Because I feel like home, it's like a really big make or break part of marriage. Like a lot of couples fight over things that have to do with your home life, like finances and kids and chores and things like that.

[00:45:08] So trying to create a space that is life-giving and not life-sucking is really a big part of it, I think, having and talking about that sort of thing. So I really, I really get excited about creating more functional spaces, having kind of good budget finances figured out. I mean, I'm a math nerd, so I love that.

[00:45:33] And trying to just like optimize the space to make you successful. Because like side note, I, since I'm that type of personality, I created a spreadsheet like a year ago that has like all of the recurring tasks I need to do for my home, my life, all that stuff.

[00:45:54] And it was originally over eight and a half hours every single day of tasks I needed to do, like estimated just chores and stuff. Wow. And that wasn't even including my full-time job at the time. So I was like, okay, we definitely are holding ourselves to higher expectations. And I had like Googled, like, how often are you supposed to do each of these household tasks? And it was like, well, this is ridiculous. This is not possible.

[00:46:21] I can't be doing this all the time. So I think creating better expectations and also just reducing the things on your plate is a really big thing. Yeah, I like that. And I paid, my ears perked up when you mentioned sitting around a fire, a little campfire, because I just bought a fire pit so that we can sit out back. Because to me, it just, it's relaxing. Yeah.

[00:46:51] And whether I spill my guts or not, it's just peace. And I want peace. And I think everybody does. The world is so crazy right now. I think everybody just wants a little peace. And if you can sit with your loved one while you're enjoying that peace, that's great. Yeah. It's like a distraction-free zone, which is great. You're just looking at the beautiful fire and you're just basking in the presence of being together. It's amazing. Right. Yeah.

[00:47:20] And I wanted to get one on the weekends so we could do that. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. That's awesome. So as we kind of wind down a little bit, is there anything you want to tell us about the strategist part of marriage or about your faith and how your journey has been affected by your faith? Or is there anything you want to make sure that the listeners hear today that we haven't talked about? Yeah, thank you.

[00:47:49] I think that knowing that Jesus Christ is the perfect example, bringing that into our marriages is really helpful. I'll say that, I mean, obviously you don't have to be a Christian to have a great marriage, but I do believe you have to use Christian principles to have a good marriage. And those are universal. Whether or not you realize who they're coming from or whether you believe in that.

[00:48:15] It's those principles that Jesus taught are really essential. The principles of forgiveness, of granting grace, of just being kind and reaching out, giving, not just trying to see what you can get from someone, is just a really good approach to marriage.

[00:48:36] And I feel like the beauty of grace is just such a great topic on so many levels, but it applies beautifully to marriage. Like just granting grace, like Jesus doesn't expect us to be perfect. He does ask things of us, but it's not like we have to accomplish those things to receive his love and his grace.

[00:49:05] He gives that freely. It's up to us to accept it. And so trying to bring some of that same degree of unconditional love and grace into our marriages, I think is a really inspiring goal. And it doesn't mean that you won't get hurt. I mean, obviously Jesus was hurt by those he loved, but it's just a really good way to live. And I mean, he did have boundaries. I'm not saying you should like let people walk all over you.

[00:49:35] He would walk away if people were in certain circumstances or he wouldn't answer in certain circumstances. So he had boundaries, but he was never, he never was vengeful. He never tried to get back at someone and like, oh, I'm going to do the same thing to you that you did to me. And so we shouldn't do that. And he wasn't like, what can I get out of this person? He was, what can I give to this person?

[00:50:02] And having that sort of personality and just that sort of presence, like when you're feeling the Holy Spirit, it's just, it changes who you are. And I think if we can bring that same sort of presence and just life-giving spirit into our marriages, then that inspires both of us to change and to be better. So just Jesus is our example.

[00:50:29] He's our savior and he gave so much for us. And I always try to remind myself, it's like, Jesus knows me perfectly. He knows my husband perfectly. He knows all our flaws. He knows everything we've ever done wrong. Yet he loves us perfectly. He loves my husband more than anyone does. So why shouldn't I love my husband? The most divine and perfect being loves him despite any flaws. So what excuse do I have?

[00:50:58] And if Jesus will grant him grace, I should too. And also to ourselves, Jesus grants me grace. So I should grant grace as well. So it's all about grace and love and just trying to be like Jesus. I love that. Thank you. And I do feel like I mentioned earlier, I think having faith and believing in Jesus also to what you're saying, it makes us want to be a better person.

[00:51:24] But it makes you also want to work harder at your marriage and try to do everything you can to make it stronger and not. There's a lot of people. I feel like a lot of people these days are just like, I'm done. I'm out of here. They don't want to have to deal with things. Well, marriage is hard. Life is hard. You're going to hit struggles. And you've got to work together to overcome it and not just throw your hands up and say, I'm done. Of course, every situation, every person is different. But I'm just talking in general. Yeah.

[00:51:54] I think people need to try harder. So yeah, we don't give up. I was talking to a friend of mine. She's from India. And I was like, they have a 1% divorce right there. What's your secret? Oh, wow. I know. I'm like, that's awesome. Tell me your secrets. And she's like, well, you don't divorce your siblings or your parents or something because things are hard. You work it out. So do the same thing with your husband. I'm like, oh, that's nice. That's cool.

[00:52:23] Just like work it out. Very matter of fact. But that's the truth. Yeah. There should be an expectation that you're going to sit down and work it out. Yeah. And barring abuse or something. Yeah. It's like it's a covenant. Yeah. And we don't just run away when it gets hard. Exactly. In your opinion, what does a beautiful marriage mixed in with reality these days? What does that look like? Exactly.

[00:52:50] So a beautiful marriage is just adoring your spouse, your I'll say husband since I'm talking from my perspective. Just seeing someone that you just totally adore. He's amazing. Of course, like not every second of every day is perfect. But it's something that overall, it's just you're so much better off with this person. We are just so much happier together. You like I miss my husband when he's gone.

[00:53:20] I always look forward to seeing him every single day. It's like what I always look forward to is when I get to see him next. And just knowing that there's someone who really knows you and really cares about you and loves you and accepts you the way you are, even though you make the same stupid mistakes over and over again. And being able to grant that same grace to him and just someone that you just feel really comfortable with.

[00:53:49] And you enjoy spending time together. You love talking. I say marriage is daily sleepovers with your best friend. You just maybe you don't get a lot of sleep because you're talking all night or something. Or if you wake up in the middle of the night, you can have an insomniac party together. That's super fun. And so just like being really, really good friends who just love being together.

[00:54:15] And I think that's something that's totally possible and within the reach of people. And I just really want people to experience what I've gotten to experience. Just I mean, I know I married the best man on the earth. Sorry, ladies. Yeah. And y'all come in with the disadvantage of that. But I think it's just so possible because you married your husband for a reason. And he's the same guy that you married.

[00:54:39] He's still a wonderful person that just that's loved by God. And you're also loved by God. And the two of you are not broken. It's maybe your system is broken. But most people in a marriage are just well-meaning individuals who are doing their best. And so enjoying that and getting to enjoy the journey as you both improve and progress together.

[00:55:06] So do you guys still have, because it sounds beautiful for sure, do you still have big disagreements? Or do you find that the more you stay connected, that it's less and less? Yeah, we definitely disagree on a lot of things. I mean, we're not like the type to yell at each other or anything. It's more so like, oh, well, I didn't really see it that way. So I feel like I'm kind of a believer that we're adults and we can disagree like adults

[00:55:34] and kind of reasonably discuss it. So there's like, I feel like most of the things that we disagree on are not super major. Like we agree on all the important stuff. Yeah, deal breaker. But yeah, and sometimes I feel like understanding where he's coming from and respecting his opinion, even if it's different. I think those are totally compatible things. So there's some things it's like, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this.

[00:56:04] But I understand where you're coming from. And I totally respect why you think that based on your own experiences and your background and priorities. And then mine, I just have a slightly different background and experience and stuff like that. So we don't have to agree on everything. And I think it would be weird if we did agree on everything. We'd be like the same person, but we can disagree like adults. I love that. Yeah. I don't get into this screaming and yelling thing either. I don't think we ever have. Yeah.

[00:56:32] We might, somebody might raise their voice and at one time or another and the other one say, hey, but yeah, I don't buy into that either. I don't think you have to act that way. No, I agree. I'm like the all couples fight is a myth. So is there anything else you want to tell us about your business before we, or if people are listening and they're like, I love Katie. I want more. How do they find you? How do they connect to you or follow you? Yeah, definitely.

[00:57:01] My business is Rooted Wife Coaching and you can Google me or I'm on Facebook, Instagram, all the places. And I have a book coming out called Cultivating a Beautiful Marriage and that's being published October 20th. So I would love for people to read it. I talk a lot about some of the things we've talked about and I go into a lot more detail and it's something I'm very excited about.

[00:57:28] And I put a lot of my heart into it because I just really, I really hope that I can help people realize that it's possible and fall in love with their husbands. That's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. And I think the sooner you get to them, the better, because I feel like just my experience over the years of watching people is people set expectations, but they don't share those expectations before they get married. So they're both coming in with a completely different set.

[00:57:58] And then when it doesn't align, you've got conflict. And so I wish people would discuss, these are my expectations. This is what I'm hoping for before they ever get married and see if they're aligned or not. Yeah, I totally agree. That was one question I was thinking for you was, as I was listening to you talk about from a young age, you were so into all of this and interviewing people. I was wondering, I was going to say, are you going to write a book?

[00:58:26] Because that's like the perfect foundation of a book. It really is. Well, thank you. I'm excited. It felt really good to write. And yeah, preventative, their preventative work is way better than having to fix something broken. Absolutely. Well, thank you for joining us today and sharing your wisdom with us. It's been awesome. I've enjoyed every minute of it. So thank you.

[00:58:52] And I hope people go out and get your book when it comes out and repair whatever they have. Or like you said, if you get to them soon enough, they can figure it out before they jump in. Well, thank you so much, Michelle. You've been such a delight. I really appreciate you having me on. Absolutely. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, that was fun. Thank you. So bye-bye. Have a great weekend. You too.

[00:59:15] As we wrap up this episode, one thing I really appreciated about this conversation with Katie is the reminder that a good marriage doesn't just happen because two good people love each other. It still needs intention. Sometimes that means loosening your grip, allowing your spouse to do things differently. Sometimes it means putting down a never-ending to-do list and actually spending time together. And sometimes it's recognizing that you've become great partners at running a household but have forgotten to nurture the relationship underneath it.

[00:59:44] I especially loved Katie's description of marriage as daily sleepovers with your best friend. That's such a simple picture of what so many of us ultimately want. Someone who knows us, loves us, gives us grace, but still enjoys doing life with us. Katie's upcoming book is Cultivating a Beautiful Marriage, and you can also find her through Rooted Wife Coaching. I'll put all of her information in the show notes. If this episode made you think about your own marriage, send it to your spouse.

[01:00:13] Maybe even use it to start a conversation you haven't had in a while. Until next time, remember, even in the middle of life's greatest struggles, there is still beauty to be found in the mess. As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person, and with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend.

[01:00:39] And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.