Ep. 165 Love Is Not Luck: What 54 Years of Marriage Taught Belle Gayer

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. Before we get started, just a quick heads up that today's conversation does include some explicit sexual language and some pretty candid discussion about sex and intimacy, so you may want to save this episode for a time when the kids aren't nearshot. Today's guest is Bill Gayer, author of Our Relationships for Suckers, and a woman who knows a thing or two about lasting love after 54 years of marriage.

[00:01:00] After spending seven years answering relationship questions online and reaching more than 34 million views, yes, you heard that right, 34 million views, Belle decided to put what she learned into a book about love, marriage, intimacy, and connection.

[00:01:16] In this conversation, we talk about why the honeymoon stage ending doesn't mean love is gone, what keeps couples connected over decades, communication, sex and intimacy as we age, unrealistic expectations, and when a relationship really is no longer worth saving. Whether you're married, dating, single, or simply wondering what makes love last, I think Belle will give you plenty to think about. And fair warning, Belle doesn't hold back. Hi, I'm Michele Simms, your host.

[00:01:45] I'm just a regular person who, like so many others, has faced my fair share of messes. Life hasn't always been neat or easy, but it's taught me a lot. And somewhere along the way, I got deeply curious. How do other people make it through their messes and not just survive, but thrive? That started my pursuit. I started searching for stories, wisdom, and real strategies, not only for myself, but for anyone looking for a better way forward.

[00:02:10] Maybe there is a faster way, a softer way, a more human way, and maybe we don't have to figure it out alone. I believe we grow through shared stories, lived wisdom, and the beautiful mess of being human. So welcome to the conversation. I'm so glad you're here. Please join me for episode 165 of the The Beauty in the Mess called Love is Not Luck, What 54 Years of Marriage Taught Belle Gayer. So without further ado, let's get into it. Hi, Belle. Welcome to the Beauty and the Mess.

[00:02:39] I'm so glad to have you with me today. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. Now, I know you're an author, and we're going to get into the book here shortly. But I wanted you to give us kind of your backstory. Like, what led you down the path to be able to write this book? Or what was the inspiration for this book? Absolutely. Well, we met and married four months later.

[00:03:05] We were both just 20 years old when we met, and we were just 21 when we got married. And we made all the mistakes pretty much that everybody makes, because very few people have any real idea of how romantic love really works and what to expect. And we just, we see our parents and married family, but we don't really know. So we kind of went in and had our little trials, and then we worked it out over time.

[00:03:32] And what happened was about, and we did really well. We had our triumphs and tragedies over time, as people do in their lives, whether they're married or not. And we worked through everything together. But what happened was about seven years ago, I looked around, and I saw so much needless pain and heartbreak and divorce and disconnection from people, people afraid to commit and people afraid to talk to each other

[00:03:59] and brainwashed ideas about what love was really all about and how to do it. And I thought, well, you know what? We figured it out. I need to share that. So I decided to write a book, because my English professors all told me, well, you're a really good writer. You should write. And my life took me in different directions. So I didn't do that. So I said, OK. And I sat down, and nothing came out. I said, well, how am I going to say what I want to say? There's so much to say. And what are people looking for? And serendipity stepped in.

[00:04:28] And someone told me about Quora. Quora, and I spent the next seven years, the last seven years, answering questions and sharing insights and advice and some practical wisdom on Quora to 34.5 million views and lots of compliments. And it's amazing. Thanks. Yeah. So that's what happened. But I was writing for seven years on Quora, and I helped a lot of people, and they appreciated it. But it wasn't enough.

[00:04:58] And I came to about December. My birthday is March. I turned 75 in March. And it was December. And I said, I always tell people, cherish every moment, because no one young or old knows if they have enough. It's guaranteed another. So I better, if it's going to get done, it better get done now. So I did it. And I distilled the book from my life and my experiences with my beloved husband.

[00:05:20] And the Quora answers, the advice that I had given all about my thoughts on love and marriage and relationships and being single and being worthy of love and self-esteem and self-love. So that's how I came to do the book. And also, the proceeds are going to charity. My husband, we do well enough without that. And so it's my tikkun olam.

[00:05:42] And if you're not familiar with that, that's Hebrew for, it's a Jewish imperative to repair the world, which is why we're here, to make the world a better place before we go. So, and my legacy. So that's the story. Well, you answered one of my questions. I was going to ask if you went back and looked at all the questions you had answered on Quora for seven years, and you obviously did. Indeed. Indeed, I did. Indeed. That was the point of answer. Well, the point of answering them was to help people, to be fair.

[00:06:10] But it also was to help me focus on what to say and how to say it about what I've learned. So you think that helped train you for the book in a way? Yeah. Well, no, no, no. It was my training that went into the answers. Well, that's what I mean. It helped get you prepped for the book, I should say. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, it did. So what do you think the difference is between, like you said, the divorce rate skyrocketing, everything else?

[00:06:39] What's the difference between people when they get married today as opposed to when you guys got married? Well, it's a lot different. It's a different world. The biggest problem is the social disconnect. Not just intimate, but general. And the phone in your face and the earbuds in your ears that eliminate. We are human beings. We are biologically and emotionally polyamorous. We're supposed to love, keep love in our hearts.

[00:07:05] And love is essential to all of us, all eight kinds, except hopefully mania, which is obsession, which is the only negative form of love. We don't want that anywhere near us. But all the rest of it, we are meant to experience love, to connect, to share community. That's part of our DNA. And people are becoming more and more isolated, which creates a terrible problem for everyone. And there's a lot more unhappiness. There's a lot more disconnect. There's a lot more fear.

[00:07:33] Again, this is why I felt I had to sit down and talk to people about it and tell them, don't do this anymore. You've got to get out there. I was getting a lot of questions about people who are not happy in relationships or lonely in relationships or people who were heartbroken and couldn't move on and just didn't understand anything about how to function in a relationship and in their lives. And I found that very disturbing because it's not that hard to do it right.

[00:08:02] It just means you shut the computer, you turn off your phone, you get your butt off the couch, you get out there in the world, you volunteer, you take classes. I have a laundry list. I have hundreds of posts delineating specific things you can do to get out there, meet people, make your life happier and better. But it involves getting off the computer, getting outside of all this information, just interacting with human beings.

[00:08:30] I have been hearing lately how they've set up the algorithms for social media to make us literally addicted, right? Oh, well, yeah. Addicted to the scroll. So if you have a couple that's already married, but one person can't get off the TV, can't get off the computer, can't get off the phone, whatever it is, how do you deal with that? Yes, it's meant to be addictive. I saw that right away. That's what they want because they want to be paid by their advertisers.

[00:09:00] They want more money from their advertisers and they get more money when you show up and stay, right? Right. So that's how it works. So how do you deal with that? I'm Jewish, but you have to have a come to Jesus meeting, okay? You have to really be communicating. You have to say, look, this doesn't work for you or for us, okay? Certainly doesn't work for me, okay? I love you. I want to build a better life with you. I want to be closer with you.

[00:09:27] I want to share my life with you and my soul with you and my heart, all of it. So you need to help me and help yourself by either they need therapy if it's that bad, or they just need to be more aware and close the computer. Turn off the phone. I mean, you are in control of your own mind. We have supercomputers up here, okay? We are constantly observing things, making judgments, taking in information of every kind.

[00:09:58] You can control your own mind and your thoughts and where they go. So when, I mean, it's not as bad as a physical addiction, but it's certainly bad to have that emotional and mental. Right. That's what some of AI is causing right now. They're the perfect mate, so to speak. Oh, they're very responsive and kind and sweet and loving. I mean, I could see, I don't know if you've seen the movie that, was it Joaquin Phoenix, Her, I think the name of the movie was, where he falls in love with an AI person. This is a couple of years ago already. I haven't seen it, but yeah.

[00:10:27] Oh, you should check it out. It's a revelation. I've heard of real life. Yeah. People doing that. Yeah. And then now it happens a lot more in real life. Yeah. And it scares me because it's so dangerous and so terrible for humanity. It is. Yeah. Yeah. And for things to be, I mean, if you think about it, without the visual, without the touch, without, for someone to fall in love. Eye contact. Yeah.

[00:10:56] None of that. When you meet someone, you read the signals. Your brain is working consciously. You're conscious and your unconscious mind. Okay. Okay. He looked me in the eyes. He said things in a nice tone. He's saying funny things. He's saying sweet things. He's not being nasty or mean. Oh, we're evaluating constantly. And the way he holds your hand, or if he reaches out to you or the way he smiles, does you feel, does it feel real? All of that is going on in person on the computer. No.

[00:11:26] Yeah. So it makes you wonder how desperate or lonely this person has to be to fall in love with something that can't provide any of that. I believe that love is an essential human need. Yeah. And that makes it even harder because we are moving so far away from that, that people get more and more desperate. And desperation is never a good way to go into any relationship.

[00:11:51] So I have to ask on this journey, how long ago was it that you started Quora? Seven years. Seven years ago? Okay. So since you've started that till now, or since writing the book, was there anything that you've changed your mind about over the years? Or have you been pretty... In the last seven years? No. No. Over time, of course. Of course. Over time. Because, of course, we were very, very young when we got married. And then we went through... I put him through eight years of school, higher education.

[00:12:20] And then we had a child. And then for 12 years, we didn't... Then we had another. And then we moved to California for school for him. And then we had moved back to our family after... And then we had the recession, which destroyed his career. And we were on welfare for 10 years. It's been quite the journey. Oh, I bet. So if somebody is having issues in their marriage, whether it's from one person constantly scrolling

[00:12:49] or whatever, I feel like today's culture is literally we're programmed to just give up. Right? It's like just... Yeah. It's so easy to... It's much easier because there's so much opportunity out there and so much distraction and so much available information and stuff. Yeah. I think that people may believe it's easier just to start over, but I don't believe that to be true. I don't believe you should give up. I don't believe it. Yeah. I don't believe you should give up what you've grown and built and nurtured if you've shared love.

[00:13:19] I think the worst thing is that men and women are both brainwashed in different ways. Men are brainwashed not to show their emotions, not to be emotional, to be macho, to be in control. And that is at odds with what women want today and probably ever really wanted. I can't talk for millennia ago, but independent women certainly. And it's scary. It's very scary because the world today is a lot different. But you still need the basics.

[00:13:47] You need communication. You need soul-touching communication between two people. You can't have that when one of you is on the phone here and one of you is on the computer over there and you're doing your own thing. And that's not conducive to a healthy, fulfilling, mutual relationship. That has to change. Right. I just wonder if people get so ingrained in what they do. And I think another part about society today, whether you're scrolling or not, is that we're kind of programmed and taught to be busy all the time, right?

[00:14:17] We're not productive if we're not busy. Yeah. So it's taking the kids, taking the grandkids. It's doing this. It's doing that. Right. Right. Wearing yourself out. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's also... And then you have nothing left for your spouse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a problem. I mean, that's why it's important to date each other and to take a weekend away as often as you can. If it's once a month, once every six months, but to get away together and reconnect on a more intimate level.

[00:14:45] And the other problem is the brainwashing on the woman's side is unrealistic expectations. True love. True love. It's perfect. Perfect love. No, there's no such thing. Okay. That's a fable. The Invention of Poets and Novelists and Movies and Television and Social Media, promoted by those people. It's the worst thing you can do to let people believe that that's really what love is all about. So you said you were, from the time you started dating to the time you got married, was four

[00:15:15] months, right? Yeah. Kind of a whirlwind. Yeah. So do you think that played in your favor? I mean, obviously it has in some way, but you know what I'm saying? And is it because you learned to grow together? Part of it. Or did you guys have those big discussions about expectations? We did. You did? Okay. Well, we did. We did. We had those discussions. We connected really quickly on a higher level. We just did. We just meshed. It was very special.

[00:15:43] He and I have a very special relationship and he's brilliant and he's a very special person. And I think I'm pretty smart. So lots of street smarts, especially realistic. I call myself a pragmatic realist, but I am an optimist too, even though sometimes I don't sound like it. So do you feel like faith plays a role in your marriage? For us? Yes, certainly. It's always better if you share the same spirituality. No question. Exactly.

[00:16:12] You need to have the best relationship. It needs to start on solid ground, not quicksand. So you need enough basic compatibilities. And one of those is spirituality, certainly. Certainly. So yes, the fact that we, it's funny because we both started out kind of being agnostic more than anything, even though, and you don't really have to be believe in God to be Jewish. You have to believe in the ethics and morality of the Torah, the Bible. You don't have to believe in a Godhead. But we had been doing up until very recently for 20 years, a Sabbath service on Friday

[00:16:41] afternoons at an old age home down the block. And certainly that was very satisfying. And sharing that experience brought us closer together for sure. So what do you feel the other pillars are of spirituality? The pillars, I will tell you what the four pillars are. So you start on solid ground, of course, with the basic compatibilities. And then you build the foundation. The foundation has four pillars. It has, the first is communication on a deeper spiritual level. Non-conflict as much as possible.

[00:17:10] But since we're human, obviously we will have arguments and fights. Just knowing that compromise and the ultimate goal is to resolve everything before you go to sleep. That's my feeling. Communication is the cornerstone of every successful, healthy, fulfilling relationship. The absolute cornerstone. And then you have focus where you have, you prioritize each other over everyone else. But when you have children, of course, then it's a joint priority. That's a joint priority. Right.

[00:17:39] The third part would be devotion or a higher level of deeper level of commitment. And the final piece of the puzzle is flexibility or adaptability, where you are able to quickly change direction when things don't go as planned. And that's a life skill. All of them are skills that can be learned. Even if you are less flexible, you can become more flexible. Even if you aren't devoted to this person, you can learn and share more devotion.

[00:18:08] Communication skills can be awful, but you can build them. All of that can be... Love is not luck. Oh, yes. At the beginning, it's electricity. If you are falling... That's not falling in love. It's not love at first sight. It's the seed, the germ of love. And when you build on that, you're falling in love. Yes. But it's... Love is not luck. It's more than electricity because that always dies. The first stage of romantic love, the honeymoon stage, always dies, according to research,

[00:18:37] between six months and two years in. So then what do you have? You suddenly... I woke up five months after we got married and I looked over at my husband sleeping and I went, oh my God, I'm sleeping with my brother. Suddenly, all that hormonal happiness, all those endorphins and the oxytocin, all those things, they just... They were gone in a second. So what do you do? Do you say, oh, I've got to go to the next relationship and find somebody else to give me that? No. You've built something. You're growing something.

[00:19:07] You're nurturing love. So I just rolled over and gave him a hug and we made love and everything went free. We just kept going. But it wasn't the same because it's not the same. A lot of people don't understand that. Yeah. I think a lot of people mistake that feeling leaving for love just not. The death of love. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And it's not. It's just not. But they don't... That's the thing. People are... I know it sounds terrible. People tend to be clueless about love. They really do.

[00:19:35] They really don't understand what it's all about, how to nurture it, how to communicate on the best level, what to say, how to relate to each other. Whether you're homosexual or heterosexual, it doesn't matter. You're still a whole different person than the one you're trying to relate to. So it's very... It's not easy. It's hard work, effort, time, and energy and small gestures. The small gestures take you through it.

[00:20:02] You think it's the devotion then overall that's the number one? Yeah. The commitment and devotion. Sure. Sure. So did you guys have parents that had long marriages? Did you have role models? Well, his parents and my parents both had long marriages. My parents did not have a great marriage. His parents did. Okay. From the time I was three until I was 13, we lived with my maternal grandparents and they very much loved each other. And it was obvious, even though they were not physical in public that way.

[00:20:32] But you could tell that they were deeply in love. And they were married by shiddach, which means match. They were married by a matchmaker. Oh. Just as my father's parents were married by matchmakers. Because in those... That was the early 1900s. And that's how people got married. Or the late 1800s, maybe even. Anyway, that's how people... Up until very recently, there were not a lot of love marriages. Love marriage was the unusual one.

[00:21:01] Mostly it was arranged for financial reasons, for political reasons, and all of that. That was the way people got married, if you look at history. But now that... So either you fell in love with... And there are still cultures, of course, that do a lot of arranged marriages. I know India is one. Right. So you have people connecting. If they're married by match, either they fall in love or they just say, Okay, this is my life. I accept it.

[00:21:30] And we're going to do the best we can. But the love doesn't come. So we both have... But I did... So I had my grandparents as a love example. And I had my parents as a cuckoo head love. Crazy stuff. Woo! Kind of thing. And he had his parents as an example. Long-term love. Yeah. That was part of it. And what do you think the best thing that you learned from any of those couples was? Well, I learned... I think I have to say that I was a dramatic reader.

[00:21:59] I used to consume books like nobody's business. I would read late into the night with my nightlight at night. And I read everything from Lady Chatterley's Lover to Catch-22 to Kurt Vonnegut to Isaac Asimov. I read constantly. So a lot of what my understanding of life and people and relationships came from literature. Oh, wow. But I think that you can't rely your family mentors to understand love.

[00:22:26] Because they're not really sharing with you what I share in that book, which is how do you do it? You're seeing them do it. You may see them do it and do it well or poorly. But you're not... You don't know how. So you hear some couples talk about boredom. How do you... Ah. I got a lot of questions in Quora about, I'm bored. What do I do? I can't... Okay. You know what I say? I say, Bobola. I'm 75 years old. I have never been bored.

[00:22:54] And I have a very high IQ and I'm very demanding. Never bored. You have a plethora, a humongous abundance of so many things to do and read and see and experience. Why are you bored? Are you just... What is it? Why are you bored? Why aren't you exploring those things? That's how I feel about boredom. Why aren't you exploring the plethora, you mean? Is it? There's no excuse for it.

[00:23:25] Yeah. There's no excuse to be bored. None. That's all. You're just lazy. That's probably very true for the people who say that. Yeah. Because... Yeah. I'm sorry. That's what I say. I'm sure it won't be... People will be offended. I'm sorry, but... Excitement's not always a good thing, too. I mean, you can have a lot of excitement, but it may not be good. That's true, too. Yes. Excitement may not... If you're not... Oh, my God. If you're overwhelmed and it's too much, that's not good either.

[00:23:54] So do you think people are misconstruing stability, kind of, for boredom? I mean, because things are stable and not rocky? No, I think... No, no. Yeah, maybe. But I think it's more that they're not getting to know each other on a deeper level. They're not deep enough into each other. They're not sharing enough. Because I know that what developed between my husband and myself... And I see a part of it is... I call him my beloved almost all the time.

[00:24:23] I mean, it gets silly saying beloved, beloved. So you say husband or partner. But I call him my beloved and I say everyone should always think of their special person as their beloved, especially when times get tough, especially when it's hard. Because that creates a different kavanah, which is a Hebrew word for feeling and atmosphere in your relationship. People don't touch each other's souls enough. Men have been told not to do that. Don't show your emotion.

[00:24:50] And women have these unrealistic expectations and they don't understand how men think and react. So like I have a husband that doesn't show a lot of emotion. Right. I mean, I love him dearly, but he's... Yeah. That's just the way he grew up. Right. So how do you encourage someone to show some emotion? I would say a couple's retreat would be good. I would say you need practice. You need to have someone show you how to do open up. The Esalen Institute. I know they're still in existence. They still...

[00:25:19] I used to have a book when I went to college of exercises that they do, like physical exercises for more connection between people and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Back there in California, they've been doing that, I guess, for 50, 60 years. I wish I could find another copy of it because it got lost in the somewheres. But you can show him how or someone or a group of people, a therapist or couples together, a bunch of couples or a couples retreat.

[00:25:48] I think you should share that if you... Because I know how I need that. I need more... Like my husband will say, it's just you and me, babe. And I have to be careful what I say I like because otherwise it'll show up from Amazon in the morning in the house. So he is very attentive and emotional. And we're very, very close emotionally and physically. So I know the difference between it being that way and not having that. And I think everybody deserves it. I think you're worthy of that.

[00:26:18] I think you're worthy of love. You're worthy of great love. And to get great love, you have to have more from him. You need more from him. And you need to tell him that. Just say, I love you, but I need more from you. I need you to understand that the way you were brought up was not conducive to the best intimate relationship. And I want a better relationship. That's what I would say to him. You kind of wonder, like as people age together and like I've just become accustomed to how he is.

[00:26:48] Yes, I understand. Yeah. And I don't know what the right word would be. Shy or backward or whatever. I can't see him... Reserved. He's reserved. He's more reserved emotionally. Yeah. I can't see him opening up even with a group of people. So I don't know if he would do that or not. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I get it. But it doesn't matter if he can open up to a group of people. You only want him to open up to you. You deserve that. And he owes you that. And you owe it to him to help him do that. I'm sorry.

[00:27:17] That's... No, no. I love hearing it. Yeah. I'm not a psychiatrist. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a therapist. I'm not qualified by my degrees. But just through life experience, this is what I see. That's pretty interesting. So what do you think about the people that get frustrated and they think the grass is greener? What do you think? Ah. Maturity or immaturity, I would say. They're immature. Yeah. A lot... I've seen, because being 75 and all, I've seen a lot of different relationships.

[00:27:45] A lot of people who break up and they live to regret it. Exactly. The grass looks greener. And then, whoops, guess it wasn't so, was it? Maybe he wasn't so big. Maybe we could have worked something. I think the problem is not... I think the problem is just... That problem is more communication than anything else. And being unable to open up enough, not knowing how, being unwilling to, coming from the brainwashing of childhood that said, no, we don't behave like that.

[00:28:14] Do you think some of it, that some couples, that their pride gets in the way? Oh, ego. Certainly. Of course. And defensiveness, right? Right. And blame. Oh, I have to be right. And the lack of ability to compromise. And even sometimes apologize when you're right. When you're right? I hadn't heard that before. Yes. Yes. Listen, I've done that. And when that happens, he's always come back to me and say, you were right about that. Okay.

[00:28:40] But is it important to be right or is it important to be happy and have a healthy, comfortable, loving, warm home and relationship? Which is more important to be right? Okay. The odd thing is, as you were talking, I was thinking a lot of people that get defensive or hardened or whatever, and I think the grass is greener and they leave, they don't realize

[00:29:04] that they're also taking the baggage that they just created in this relationship with them into the next one, right? They are going to make the same mistakes. Exactly. That they made in this one and the next one, of course. Because they didn't fix anything. It's immaturity. It's lack of good judgment. All of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So how do people know when it's truly time to call it quits or is it ever really truly time to call it?

[00:29:34] Can you always try to say? Well, abuse. Certainly abuse. Yeah. Abusive relationships are utterly unacceptable. It's always time to get out of an abusive relationship sooner. Exactly. Sooner. Yeah. Yeah. And that means emotional or controlling manipulative people always quickly, as quickly as possible. That's always an out. And that's not necessarily abusive. It's just something you shouldn't have to deal with. You know, manipulation and control. A lot of people are like that.

[00:30:02] And even women, men and women on both sides. Some people just, they don't want their way. That's it. But that's ego. There's a lot of that. I mean, certainly. And I think you should give it every effort. I think you should look at my book, use some of my methods and see what works for you. All the forms I've been filling out lately and all the people, the reading groups and these people who want me to appear and do talk and do all that stuff. What is your ultimate goal?

[00:30:27] My ultimate goal is to have my book in every single household in the world so that people can look at it and refer to it when there's a problem or they have trouble understanding what to do, what to say, and how to deal with their relationships, whether intimate or any other way. And when you have a good relationship, a good, solid, happy relationship at home, you take that in your heart that you have shalom by it, which means peace in the house.

[00:30:53] And you take that in your heart out with you to the rest of the world, to business, to your colleagues, to your family, to your friends, even to strangers. You become a better person. Your soul deepens. There's nothing like it. There's nothing like waking up next to someone you love after 50 years and giving you a kiss in the morning and a kiss at night and a hug and the small gestures like a peck on the cheek or a brush on the shoulder as you pass each other. And once in a while saying, have I told you how much I love you recently?

[00:31:23] There is nothing like that if you don't have that. Right. Those years and that person in your life and you haven't cultivated it and nurtured it enough. And that's when you move apart. Well, none of us perfect. We all have quirks and flaws. I mean, that's just how it is. So some of them have to be tolerated. You have to be patient and you have to be willing to compromise. And like I said, sometimes you've got to apologize when you're right. I love that. I've never really heard that before.

[00:31:52] In your book, do you cover like warning signs? Yeah. Red flag. Sure. Yeah, because I think some of the problems sometimes because we're in that giddy phase of love to start with. Yes. That you overlook. Exactly. So how do you get past the giddiness to see the big issue? Yeah. You definitely, I have a whole list of red flags. No question. In the book, there's a whole list.

[00:32:17] But I think that people get carried away with, like I say, put your penis back in your pants. That's, you put your panties back on your pussy. Come on. Think about this realistically. Be objective here. Okay. Now evaluate. Do a pros and cons. Do a list. Make a line down the middle. Put pros and cons and be honest about, is this going to work? Right. So talk to us about life intimacy. I know that's a topic that you get into, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:47] There's nothing, like I was saying, there's nothing like, intimacy means you care about each other. You think about each other when you go shopping and what is, what should I bring? I'm buying something for myself. What should I bring for them? It doesn't mean that you're preoccupied with your partner. It means that you've created extra space for them in your soul and in your mind so that intimacy is important to you. And so, but we were talking about the solid ground and the pillars and then building the house of love that you're going to build.

[00:33:15] But sexual compatibility is the cement to that foundation. If you want sex once a week and he wants it every day, it's just not going to work. And if his needs are for you to put on something that, something a little that you aren't willing to do, if that's a real need of his, it's not going to work either. Or vice versa. Everybody's entitled. If you're willing to be tolerant of other person's quirks and needs, then you've got a better chance at making anything work.

[00:33:43] But definitely, you really have to be realistic about compatibility factors and the interaction you share with that person. How well does it work? How do you relate to each other? Do you have common spirituality? Do you have common background and interests, goals, and desires? Be realistic. Right. There's a difference between like if I'm brand new to a relationship and I'm learning this

[00:34:10] person's quirks, as you said, or whatever, versus being in a relationship long-term and then people grow, people change. Oh yes. People do grow and change, of course. People change physically. I mean, you can have health issues. Sure. Oh, for sure. So when something like that happens, say it's a physical issue that affects the intimacy, how do people supposed to handle that? So, I mean, obviously my husband thought I was the most beautiful creature on earth when he met me.

[00:34:37] And obviously I am, I look a lot different. My body's different. My face is different. My skin is different. Everything's different. Right. So, but he still sees me as I was back then. So it's how you view things, not what they actually are. Okay. You have to remember, you have to remember, oh, this is the person I fell in love with. Why did I fall in love with them? What did I care about them? And their beauty, you got to, over time, you get to see their inner beauty, which is far more beautiful than anyone's outer beauty.

[00:35:05] So you've been married 54 years, correct? Yes. So does it start changing to more of a companionship or does it stay? Not for him. Well, not for you then either. Not for me either. Yeah. I mean, it's less often, certainly. It's a lot less often than it was. When we first got married, we had sex three times a day. Wow. All week long. And then on the weekends, more. Wow.

[00:35:34] When we woke up in the morning, when we came home from work and before we went to sleep. Wow. Every day for at least 10 years. Yeah. We were bunnies. I would say so. We were bunnies. And every decade, that slowed down a little. So obviously, it's not the sex that's important. It's the compatibility factors. And it's more than that. It's the intimacy. It's the cuddling. It's the kissing. It's the sweet words. It's the gestures. It's much more than sex.

[00:36:02] So do you think it's important for people to practice that, like the kissing and the cuddling without always going immediately to sex? Yes. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Well, especially at our age. Hormonally. I mean, we lose our hormones over time. Men and women. Right. It's not unique. Right. Everybody does. Some people more and some people less, of course. But yes, absolutely. The physical contact needs to be maintained. Yes, definitely.

[00:36:28] So I think sometimes people can, as you get older, it can be mismatched where they think that the cuddling is always going to lead to something else. And one person wants it too, one doesn't. Right. Well, that's where communication steps in, though. That's where the deep level of communication steps in. Where you really understand each other that way. Sometimes you have to say no. And sometimes they have to say no. Especially a man sometimes has to say no.

[00:36:57] But sometimes they take it personally, right? Yeah, well, you can't. But if you are on the right level of communication, you don't take it personally. You won't take it personally. If you truly are soulmates. What the Torah says, the Bible, I guess, in the Christian Bible, in the Old Testament, beginning, I think in Genesis, it says, When a man leaves his mother and father and takes a wife, they should cleave as one flesh. Right. That's what it says.

[00:37:22] And if you really are working on doing that, you don't have to worry about getting old and disagreeing. You just don't. Because you've gotten to the level of being soulmates and understanding each other. And soulmates don't come from six generations back and other lives, past lives and all that nonsense. You nurture and build a soulmate with each other over time. And that's very interesting because most people have the perception that a soulmate is just somebody that you click with instantly.

[00:37:51] And it's some kind of magical. Yes. But you're saying anybody can grow into that. That's right. Unrealistic expectations. Big ones. True love and soulmates. The two biggies. Yeah. I think that's the number one miss with a lot of relationships is that they don't discuss their expectations before they get married. Yeah. And that's what leads to. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And also, I mean, it's more than that.

[00:38:18] I think that in middle school and high school, there should be classes, life affirming classes, how to get along with a roommate or more, how to balance a checkbook, how to how to make how to talk to a girlfriend. They teach math and they teach English and they teach social sciences. But the kids are clueless going into adulthood. Oh, I agree on a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. They don't teach them the life skills. They just. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. It's crazy.

[00:38:47] So after 54 years of marriage, is there anything? Does he still pique your curiosity at times? Are you surprised by him at times? Absolutely. Absolutely. He's a joy to live with. He really is. And sometimes a real pain in the ass. At least you're honest. When he leaves the toilet seat up in the middle of the night. And if I'm not yet home, yeah, I know. But I said, we all have quirks. We all have flaws. We're all imperfect. I certainly am not perfect for sure.

[00:39:15] And he's better about it than I am sometimes. Yeah. I mean, outside of, let's say outside of sex and the physical relationship, does he surprise you in ways like he? Oh, yeah, he does. Takes on a new interest? Or you find out he loves something that you didn't know he loved? No, no. No? I think we know all that stuff. Okay. But he's very active. He still works full time. Oh, wow. He's very intellectually active.

[00:39:42] And he's very interested in Judaism and the philosophy of Judaism. And so he's always reading and studying up on things like that. He hasn't changed that in a long time in that direction. So he surprises me with things like he'll just come home with flowers once in a while just out of the blue just because. That's sweet. And that kind of thing. But it's very comforting to know and understand somebody as deeply as we know and understand each other. So why do you feel in your experiences with people?

[00:40:10] Why do people have such a hard time discussing like sexual problems with their spouse? Difficulties or any issues for that matter? That are disturbing, right? Any issue. Yeah. I think that's a very serious problem for a lot of people. I think that's why true communication, deep spiritual level communication is so essential to the best relationships because you don't run into those problems.

[00:40:35] You have to be accepting that you will always have some issue come up, some problem show up. How do you deal with it? Do you deal with it in a kind, loving, pragmatic, objective way? Or do you start looking for letting your ego get in the way and blame and defensiveness? And then resentment or you don't resolve problems you have and then resentments grow and they get bigger and bigger and you get farther and farther apart. Is there? Yeah.

[00:41:05] And then you have to wonder, like, is there a point of no return where you've let it fester? Well, for some people, sure. Yeah, sure. There is. Of course. At some point you say, OK, you know what? It's not working anymore. It's too painful to live with every day. Yeah, for sure. But it doesn't have to get there. That's the thing. People don't know how to do it right. They let their egos get in the way. They let brainwashing get in the way.

[00:41:31] They let so much get in the way of true, deep connection because they just don't. They're lost. They just don't know how to do it. So that's why I felt I had to write the book because I said, that's what I see. And I see that if we can do it, more people can do it. Right. Not everybody, of course. But if we can do it, so can you. You just have to know how to approach it. You just have to understand. And both of you have to be willing and want to do that.

[00:41:59] And sex is a big part of that, certainly. Because, frankly, as far as I'm concerned, especially for young people, at my age, I could live without it. But certainly when I was younger, I couldn't. I don't think people, men and women, could live together without sex over time, over extended periods of time, especially when they're young. When you get older, that's different. Your hormones have quieted down. And it's possible, certainly. And, of course, if you're taking care of a loved one who is maybe disabled and you can't do it with each other anymore, that's understandable.

[00:42:30] But sex is a very important part. Intimacy. Physical intimacy is a very big and important part in intimate relationships. But they have to maintain the emotional intimacy to get to the physical intimacy, right? Yes. Yes. But you have to, of course, yes, you must maintain the emotional connection to enjoy the physical connection. Otherwise, you won't enjoy it. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot to think about, for sure. Yeah. It is. It is. It's a lot.

[00:42:57] Well, that's why when I sat down to write the book, it was a blank page. Because there's so much to say that... Right. You don't know where to start. Yeah. Right. That's it. Yeah. So what's the most surprising thing being married 54 years that you've learned in 54 years? The most surprising thing? Yeah. Okay. So I think I'm surprised at how similar men and women really can be, I suppose. Because we're so different. We really are.

[00:43:25] We think about things differently. We come from a different place. We're more nurturing. We're more demanding. Men have simpler needs and things like that. So I think learning how men's minds really work was very surprising to me. I didn't have any idea. I mean, I took psychology class or two in college, but when I read a lot, and I read so much as I mentioned, but I didn't really know how men's minds worked. And so it was fascinating to me to see how different we are, but yet how similar. So do you talk about that in the book?

[00:43:55] Like how their minds work? Yeah. You do? Yeah. That's good. Oh yeah. For sure. Because I have a degree in psychology and I still haven't figured it out. Depends on which man and which. Well, yes. People are different. Of course, people are different. Yeah. But even your spouse, there's times you're like, what do you think? We have been at the point for quite a while where I can finish his sentences and I know what he's thinking and I know what he's planning and yeah, yeah.

[00:44:22] But it's been, we've been very close for many, many decades. So, you know, that's why we can do that. But more people could have something like that. If not just exactly that. But they just don't know how. So is part of it figuring out how your partner feels like, feels love? And I don't mean the romantic love. I mean. Yeah. I don't believe in that love language nonsense because we all need all of that love language. We all need everything of all five kinds. Okay.

[00:44:50] We all, some of us need one or two kinds more than the others. Okay. What are the five kinds? Yeah. And I forget the five kinds of love language nonsense. Oh, okay. Yeah. I wasn't even going there. I was just thinking like, for me, one way that I feel love and I'm not talking romantic love, just love is help. Yeah. Right. Like if I'm working on something and he comes up and helps or. Yes. Yes. Yes. But he doesn't view that as showing love.

[00:45:17] Well, but if he understood, if you said to him, we need to talk about all of this and this is how I perceive love and you don't, but you have to see that's how I do. And that's what I need. Right. So again, it comes back to communication. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But I've been blessed because he's always been there for me with that. I've never had to force him or tell him to do that. That came more naturally to him. For some people, it's easier than others.

[00:45:44] Like you said, your husband was brainwashed into not the best place. Right. And everybody grows up differently in different environments. Yes. Yes. Of course. Of course. And that affects us too. Yeah. Of course. Of course. All of us. Yeah. All of us. And people don't like to be told what to do and how to do it either. The way I live my life, you know, and I know what to do. Yeah. Okay. So you have to be, you have to make sure that you're both open to really listening to each other and also never to jump to conclusions.

[00:46:13] That can build terrible resentments when they're not even, shouldn't even be there and cause arguments when you're just misunderstanding each other because you haven't really. Yeah. That's very important. The headband still happens to us once in a blue moon where there's a misapprehension between us and something happens. An outside situation creates conflict and we have to get through that. We work through it because we understand that, okay, no, sometimes the interaction is so quick that you immediately jump to the wrong conclusions.

[00:46:42] You don't have time to dwell on listening. But in the end, when we talked it out, it works. It just, you figure it out and you fix it. This might sound a little odd too, but I've noticed like the, younger generations believe in, and I guess I didn't grow up this way. So maybe it's just, I'm an old schooler, but they believe in separate money, separate this, separate that. And I grew up where everything goes in the same basket. Mm-hmm.

[00:47:21] Mm-hmm. I think that that's, I mean, I understand there's the control problem there. See? Not manipulation, but there's the control issue. I have to be in control. Then everything else is okay. At least I'm controlling my financial future. I believe in prenups. I do believe in prenups on both sides. I believe that everyone should have a prenup. I think it's fair, but I don't believe in separate financials. I don't. Yeah. I don't either. But that, I mean, what can I say?

[00:47:47] But isn't some of that offering that vulnerability to your spouse? Yes. Yeah. And that's the point, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that the point? Being vulnerable, giving completely of yourself, soul and heart and soul. Isn't that part of it? Yeah. But again, can come back to red flags. People are afraid of losing control and they don't know, is this person going to end up spending all our money or gambling when I'm not watching? I mean, that's a level of trust too that's a problem. Right. Exactly. Yeah, I agree.

[00:48:17] Well, I know we're wrapping up on time here. So is there anything that we didn't talk about about your book that you want to make sure that the listeners hear? Oh, I want to tell you how I got the title. The title of the, how I got it, the title of the book is Our Relationships for Suckers. And it is meant to be provocative. But, and of course they say, oh, you need a hook. Well, I said, what am I going to do for a title? But two and a half years into my journey on Quora, first of all, after six months, the questions are all the same. People have the same problems.

[00:48:47] Not everybody has each of them, but all of them, all together. The only different ones are some sexual things that would come in occasionally, some odd stuff. But everything else is all the same. People have the same issues. But two and a half years in, I came across this question that really took me aback. This gentleman said, don't you believe that relationships are a sucker's business? And I went, oh, he really believes that. Oh, that's terrible. That's just awful that he thinks you have to be a sucker to give yourself in a relationship.

[00:49:16] That's so sad. But he must, I mean, people feel betrayed, some people. Right. And people feel used and people feel financially taken advantage of. And that's why some of them think that way. But I said, okay, well, that's where I got my title from because I'm going to use that one. That's cute. So how did you answer him? Do you remember? I said, oh, yeah. Yes, I do.

[00:49:38] I told him that it made me very sad that he viewed love that way and that I was sorry that he was either betrayed or felt financially taken advantage of. I said, some of that has to do with your poor judgment. I can be blunt, honey. I said, some of them had to do with your poor judgment in your choice. Right. That's what I said. I said, so next time, here's my list of red flags for you.

[00:50:07] And that's how I answered them, basically. Yeah. I'm not afraid to tell somebody that I think they're a jerk. And there's also, we were talking earlier, like that giddy feeling in the beginning. Oh, yeah. And I've heard where some people kind of get addicted to that feeling. Yes. And then once the feeling fades. They keep looking for it over and over again. Well, that's immaturity, though. That's immaturity. I think in the long term, they will eventually figure out that that's not working.

[00:50:36] But unfortunately, I think what I sometimes say is that men, women are the nurturers. We are the mothers. But men tend to be little children at different levels of maturity. And some of them are never get above the age of three. And others can get up to 17, 18, maybe even 20. Wow. But men tend to be much simpler. Their needs aren't as great as women's. They really aren't. And they can't comprehend the woman a lot of times. That's right. And they don't understand each other's why.

[00:51:05] You don't have to know why. It just is the way it is. You don't always have to know why. Maybe that's what we're missing. We all think we got to know why when you just need to accept. Yeah. Yeah. You don't always have to know why. You just have to work with what's there. It's like, be happier. The reason I wrote the book was because I want people to be happier. Alone, more self-love, feeling worthy of love, feeling worthy of great love. Everyone is worthy of love. Everyone is also worthy of great love.

[00:51:34] You just have to figure out how two people can do that, how you can meet in the middle to do that, create that in your life. If somebody doesn't have that to start with while they're single, then it's a problem when they go into the relationship. Yeah. You have to center yourself. You have to have enough self-love and self-esteem. Otherwise, you will always be attracted to the wrong people and the wrong people will be attracted to you. So what's the best way to fix that if you have that? Well, that means you have to work on your self-esteem.

[00:52:03] I have lots of posts on that too. And in the book, there are suggestions. The first one is always volunteer somewhere worthwhile because that builds your life and feeds your soul and helps others. And that's very important. And take classes, creative, intellectual, learn a new skill, a new interest. Yeah. All of that. You build your self-esteem and self-love. It's especially hard for some people whose families may have put them down. Right. Right. Yeah. No question.

[00:52:32] And made them feel inferior. And it's funny because my grandfather, when I went to a Hebrew day school and every Sunday we used to go visit one of my grandfathers. We lived with one set and he and I would go over what I learned during the weekend. One time I must've been 10 or 11 years old. And he said to me, oh, you're too smart. You should have been a boy. Wow. Think about that. Yeah. I did not take that well, but I didn't say a word to him. Oh, you didn't? Because you were a 10. Yeah. No, I didn't. Well, I was 10 or 11 years old. Oh my God.

[00:53:01] If I had been 13, I would have. But he caught me at a moment. I'm like, I just looked at him like. Do you think that had long-term effects thinking back? Well, I didn't forgive him until he was dead. Oh, wow. So yes, it did. It was a long time for me to forgive. I wasn't angry about it. I just didn't forgive him for it. I said, that was just a horrible thing to say to me and inappropriate and wrong. But that's a lot of the mentality from generations back to that. I think there's still some.

[00:53:30] Oh, there's still some of that mentality around today. There is. Oh, I'm sorry, sweetheart. Yeah. There's still some of that mentality around. Yes. There is. Yep. Indeed. Indeed. Yes. There still is. It's been fascinating talking with you. I've enjoyed every minute of it. And I'm glad. I'm grateful you came today. Me too. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with all of us. My pleasure. And tell us again what the book is called. The book is titled Our Relationships for Suckers. And where do they get it?

[00:53:59] And I've won global book award. I've won two global book awards. You've won two. Yeah. I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. I have amassed glowing five-star reviews from readers and professional reviewers. So people are resonating with the book. So I know I've helped a lot of people. Oh, yeah. And you're going to help a lot more. And I've been told that as well. And I want everybody to have the opportunity to read it. And let me know what you think of it. Yeah. It's pretty awesome. It's awesome that you want to share everything you've learned over 54 years.

[00:54:29] So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. Are you on social media where they can connect to you? I'm on Quora. Quora. Okay. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not much for the rest of them. Okay. Well, thank you very much. I've loved it. My pleasure. You're welcome. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. As we wrap up this episode, one thing Belle said really stayed with me. Love is not luck. After 54 years of marriage, her message is that lasting love isn't something we simply find and just hope it lasts.

[00:54:58] It's something we continue to build through communication, commitment, affection, flexibility, and all of those seemingly small moments that keep us connected. And I think that's an important reminder in a world that can make us believe that when the excitement changes, the love must be gone. If you'd like to learn more about Belle or her book, Our Relationships for Suckers, you'll find everything in today's show notes. If this episode made you think about your own relationships a little bit differently,

[00:55:25] please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who might enjoy this conversation too. Until next time, remember, even in the middle of life's greatest struggles, there is still beauty to be found in the mess. As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to The Beauty in the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend.

[00:55:53] And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.