Ep. 164 Braver Than She Knew: Starting Over At 58 with Cathy Collier

[00:00:06] I'm Michele Simms and this is The Beauty in the Mess, a community where people who crave a shift in mindset, personal growth, and connection to like-minded people come together to start rewriting their stories. Through engaging, honest, and insightful conversations, the show will help you embrace the mess to recognize the meanings and the lessons it holds and discover its hidden treasures to help you start making a mindset shift. Let's listen, learn, and reclaim who we were meant to be.

[00:00:34] Hi friend, welcome to The Beauty in the Mess. Today's guest is Cathy Collier, an author, speaker, educator, and a woman who found herself starting over at 58 after more than 30 years of marriage. After trying to hold her marriage together, Cathy reached a point where she knew she had hit her limit. But walking away meant facing something she had never expected. Living alone, managing her finances by herself, rebuilding her identity, and figuring out what life looked like when the

[00:01:02] future she had planned was suddenly gone. In this conversation, we talk about betrayal, great divorce, faith, fear, finding your self-worth again, and discovering that sometimes courage doesn't feel like courage when you're living with it. Cathy's story is a beautiful reminder that starting over doesn't mean starting from scratch. Sometimes you're braver than you ever knew. Hi, I'm Michele Simms, your host. I'm just a regular person who, like so many others, has faced my fair share of messes.

[00:01:31] Life hasn't always been neat or easy, but it's taught me a lot. And somewhere along the way, I got deeply curious. How do other people make it through their messes and not just survive, but thrive? That started my pursuit. I started searching for stories, wisdom, and real strategies, not only for myself, but for anyone looking for a better way forward. Maybe there is a faster way, a softer way, a more human way, and maybe we don't have to figure it out alone. I believe we grow

[00:01:59] through shared stories, lived wisdom, and the beautiful mess of being human. So welcome to the conversation. I'm so glad you're here. Please join me for episode 164 of The Beauty in the Mess, called Braver Than I Knew, starting over at 58 with Cathy Collier. So without further ado, let's get into it. Hi, Cathy. Welcome to The Beauty and the Mess. I'm so glad to have you with me today. Hi, Michele. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Now, I know you're an author,

[00:02:29] speaker, among many other things, but before we kind of dig into what you're doing today, I was wondering if you could take me back. Like, I know that you were married for over 30 plus years, and then it ended in divorce. But what was that moment when you knew that I just can't take this anymore? It had been building, I think. We had had problems in our marriage, I thought, for about 10

[00:02:55] years. And I had discovered an affair 10 years prior. Oh, wow. And we had worked our way through it and gone to counseling and thought we were doing better. And then I told no one. I told, that's not true. I told one person, told my very best friend, no one else, that that had happened. And that's only because I was with her the weekend after it had all happened and I was a mess. So that's why I told

[00:03:21] her. And that was in 2015. In 2013, I had found pictures on his computer with somebody. And I was devastated and embarrassed and humiliated. And I just was too ashamed and too afraid to do anything about it at that time. And that's embarrassing for me to say. But it's the truth. And in 2024,

[00:03:49] I came upon some evidence that showed me it had been ongoing for many years with many people. And at that moment, when I saw that evidence, I absolutely was done. Something had just clicked in me. Now, interestingly enough, the week before I had read Colleen Hoover's It Ends With Us.

[00:04:18] And in the back of that book, 30 pages from the end, when the character is telling her mother about living in an abusive relationship, the mother has this three paragraph discussion with her daughter where she says, we all have a limit. And when we hit our limit, we know that's what it is. And she went on to explain it for three paragraphs. And I laid in bed beside him reading

[00:04:43] that. And I couldn't breathe. I felt like I had an elephant on my chest. And I rolled over and he said, oh, that must have been a good book. And I said, it was the most awful, sad book I've ever read. I cannot talk about it. That was one week before. And I think that it kind of set me up. I think God was there and kind of said to me, we all have a moment when we know that we have hit our ultimate limit.

[00:05:12] And so I knew my limit when I hit it. And there was not a doubt in my mind. I texted him that day and said, I am filing for divorce. That had to have taken a lot of bravery. I mean, even with all of that stuff compounding, I can't imagine after 30 plus years. Well, there were a lot of things like we have two grown sons who are phenomenal. And I was afraid of

[00:05:39] breaking up their family. I have a parent who parents who've been married for more than 60 years. I was raised to be very careful about what other people thought of me. And that's the most important thing that you do is you make sure what other people are thinking of you. And likewise, three years before I had retired from teaching. So I had been presenting in the

[00:06:06] education realm and was lucky enough to have published a book in education in 2021. And I retired from teaching on a teacher's retirement, which is not a lot. And I was told that would be used as our travel budget. Like we were just going to use my money to travel. And so I was terrified. I had never paid a bill in 32 years. I had never lived alone. I went from my

[00:06:31] parents to college, to a roommate, to getting married. I had a lot more unanswered questions than I had answered. And it didn't matter. At that moment, I was going to make it happen. And the thing that would make me crack in all of that was money. I was absolutely terrified of the money. And so that was something that I just, it held me back for a long time until I thought it doesn't matter. I've got to figure it out. I can't stay.

[00:06:59] How long do you think you stayed in it because of the money factor? Probably the last, only what I know now, the answer is 10 years ago. I didn't know everything. Probably the last five. Okay. I should have walked away. And I just was afraid I wouldn't be able to do it. I was afraid he had complete control of all of our money. And we had set it up that way. Like I didn't want to be in charge of our money. The only time I'd been in charge of my money was in college. I bounced checks. I was in charge of my money when I lived with a roommate. And every time I turned

[00:07:29] around, I was waiting for the next paycheck because I had just spent too much money shopping. I was terrible with money. I was fine with it. I was like, you be in charge of the money. I'll take care of the rest. But what happened is I didn't know passwords. I didn't know accounts. I didn't know, I didn't know a lot of that stuff. Now in 2014, he had had a heart attack. And so I knew where the accounts were because I had said to him after that, I probably need to know where they are. Right.

[00:07:59] But I hadn't done anything with it. Wow. And when I first started counseling and I would start crying, my counselor would say, I would just be like, I don't know the money. And it's funny because she teases me about now. She's like, you were so worried about money. And I said, I know, and it's going to be fine. And I, I can't explain it. It's just, it's going to be fine. I was just going to ask how you kept yourself calm and not going into sheer panic attacks because that would be horrifying.

[00:08:28] I, I was so resolute in that I didn't have another choice that I just was going to have to figure it out. I also knew that I knew that it's what I needed to do. And I knew that I said to him, we're going to do this as nicely as we can do this because then I won't have to tell all of your

[00:08:54] little secrets. And he was, and so everything was very above board. It was, there were things that we split very 50, 50. There were other things that we split a little bit more in my favor. I did say to him at one point, we didn't really have a 50, 50 percent share of the demise of this marriage. So I don't know that it should be split 50, 50, but I don't know. It was more,

[00:09:20] I will tell you that it was more about discovering my faith and about putting my trust and knowing that I was doing the right thing, that it would be okay. Was the faith there before the divorce or what did you grow into your faith after? I have always been a faithful person, but if I'm going to be very honest, I was mad at God.

[00:09:47] In 2015, when we, when he had an affair, we went to a counselor then quietly, nobody knew about it. I wanted to be a Christian counselor. And that Christian counselor kind of told me what I should do to change me so that he would never do it again. Oh, wow. And I was really mad at God because I thought that was a message because she was a Christian counselor.

[00:10:11] And so I had kind of taken a step back from my faith. The other thing that happened is both of our boys are very involved in soccer and in our area at certain levels, your only choice for soccer games is Sundays. So we had gotten away from going to church and they started playing when they were five and they played all the way through college and they still play as adults. They're still involved in soccer. So we had kind of gotten away from going to church, but I really had gotten away

[00:10:40] from really living my faith. And afterwards I was just determined. I was going to make sure that that was what was going to, going to be there for me. I very quickly decided I, I knew I needed a counselor and I decided I was going to interview counselors. Like I was going to find out if I wanted them before I started going to them. And I called my insurance because I have the retirement insurance for our

[00:11:06] school system. And they said, Oh, you have free counseling with the free counselor at the health center. And I was like, well, how good can this be? So I go to the free counseling, my free session, and I was allowed to go there for as long as I could, but it was this through my health insurance. So I called and made the appointment and I went and I was just like, went in kind of with my walls up and I don't know what it was, but by the time I left that first session, I knew she was going to be

[00:11:34] the counselor for me. I've stuck with her. She's been with me since then. She's gone through it all. I told her that I don't know that I'm ever going to stop going to her. I said, even if I'm not going through the crisis of divorce, there'll still be another crisis coming up. Just stick around. We'll, we'll figure this out. So she helped bring me back to my faith, even though at the time she was not a faith-based counselor because she was through the school system. So, and then I found a new church.

[00:12:00] I started going to church with my sister at her church. We kind of found something and it's been very, that has been the forefront of what I've done. So then when I was ready to write a book about it, because I decided I was going to write a book about it, I wanted it to be faith-based. I bet. This is a kind of a sidebar question, but have you seen your grown adult children kind of migrate back towards church or not due to your experience?

[00:12:24] No, they have not. They are very respectful of me and me, and they have gone with me, but they have not, it's not part of their lives. I wish it would be, but that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah. I was just curious. Yeah. So the other, another question I was going to ask you, and you might've already answered it, but I was going to say, as a Christian, how do you go through all this and not trash talk your spouse? And is it because of that agreement that you guys made or?

[00:12:54] It is from the, from the beginning of the first text that I sent to him, and he happened to be out of town for the first time in, in our 30 year marriage, he was out of town. I was going out of town the next week. He was out of town the next week. I was going out of town next week. And our, one of our sons was going out of town. So we had five weeks in a row of different people being out of town. So when I texted him and said, we are getting a divorce. When you come in the house,

[00:13:21] I will show you where your bedroom is until I can move out and I can get someplace. And we are going to tell the boys together that we are divorcing. And we decided to wait five weeks because neither of us wanted to tell him and then go out of town. We also didn't want to tell our son what was happening and then say, no, go out of town for a week. Cause we didn't think that was fair either. So we waited the five weeks and I will say to you, I was very clear. I made him tell the boys

[00:13:50] that we were getting divorced and his word, I told him he could use a word he wanted to use. He said, it was due to his indiscretions. But I said to him, we're not going to, we're not going to put it out there that you and I grew apart and that this is something that we came to mutually. That is not what I'm going to do. Your boys deserve to know. And, but at the same time, I have been super respectful

[00:14:16] of the boys. I, I don't want it to affect their relationship with their dad. Right. It's very important to me. When I decided I was going to write a book, I had a meeting with them and I said, I'm going to write a book and I'm going to let you read it first. And if you don't like it, I won't do it. And I won't, the book is not about the divorce. There's a three, four page introduction

[00:14:43] in the beginning that kind of says he cheated, he cheated, he cheated. And I left. It's kind of what it says. It's very nicely said. The rest of the book is about how I went through healing in that space. But by the time I was ready, the book was done. All the papers had been signed. I promised I would not, I promised them that I would not talk anything about the divorce until all

[00:15:09] the papers were signed. I didn't want them to feel like they were hearing two sides being pulled in between. I didn't talk about what was going on until everything was signed. I was very, I don't, it's not their business. I don't want them to know. Right. Things they don't need to know. By the time I wrote the book, they helped me edit it. They helped me design it. They helped me with

[00:15:35] some of the things in it. So they really did get it. And they got that it was about my healing and my moving on at 58. Right. And not about divorce because every other divorce book out there is how to deal with small children, how to tell small children, how to co-parent, how to divide custody, how I didn't have any of that. I didn't have to worry about any of that. The other book that was

[00:16:02] written about divorce the year that we divorced was by Melinda Gates. I'm pretty sure her divorce is very different than my divorce too. So very true. I was just like, what about me? What about people like me who are starting over at 58 and doing all those things they've never done before on their own? I remember calling my college roommate who lives about an hour North of me. And I called her and I

[00:16:28] said, Hey, I need to come up and see you. What are you doing Saturday? And she said, nothing. What do you do? I said, I have to buy a bedspread and I don't know how to do that on my own. I haven't had, I haven't made a decision in 32 years that I didn't feel like I was part of a team making it. And I don't know how to do this. And it was about a bedspread. Like I was just like, I don't know what to do. She said,

[00:16:54] come on up. So I drove up and we went shopping and we went into four different stores and she hold up something. I go, no, no. And then I finally went, I think that's it. And it was like this triumph that I have learned at that moment, how to decide things for myself is because I bought that stupid comforter. Now I love it. It's a perfect comforter and it's very beachy and it's very me, but it was really weird making decisions like that.

[00:17:23] I bet. Do you ever wonder if you hadn't read that book or whatever it ended up being that triggered you to say, this is enough where you would be at today? Do you ever think about that? Yeah. I think about it all the time. And what I come back to is, so there were three big things that happened in, in the, the 10 months before my divorce, before I decided to be divorced 10 months

[00:17:52] prior, I had a friend who ate lunch with me one day and I'd known him since I was 14 years old. And he sat down with me and he said, my wife just served me divorce papers and you're my oldest friend. And I, I don't know what I'm thinking. And I said, okay. And he's a lawyer. And so for 10 months, we met for lunch once a month. And I would be like, what's going on? What's happening? How are you

[00:18:18] doing? And he was teaching me about everything that had to do with getting divorced as far as the law goes. And I was like, well, what do you do for this? And what do you do? Cause I was trying to work him through this. Then a week before I read the book. And I mean, those three paragraphs were just life changing for me. And then the day that I decided the day that I found my evidence and decided it was

[00:18:45] time for me to get a divorce. I was sitting in a lunch. I was sitting in a restaurant and lunch, having lunch with him and a song came on. And the joke is when the song came on, it, it caught my breath. It was Matthew West, truth be told one of my favorite songs. I love it. And, and the chorus goes, I'm fine. Oh, I'm fine. Yeah, I'm fine. Oh, I'm fine. But I'm not, I'm broken. It's like

[00:19:10] what we tell people we're fine. We're fine. We're fine. And we're not. And as soon as the chorus started playing, I got crazy emotional. Like I started crying and my friend was like, are you okay? And I'm like this song, I don't know what it is about the song. He goes, what song? He's like, I can't even hardly hear it. We were in the restaurant. It was noisy. And I'm like, this song, it's just such a great song. It's just about how you pretend to be okay. And you're not.

[00:19:37] I left that lunch and went home and discovered how bad it was. So I feel like those three things kind of set me up for now's the time. I knew more about the law and divorce than I ever had because I had never even looked into it. I knew I had hit my limit. And that song was like, I'm not going to do

[00:20:04] this anymore. I refuse to live like this. And I will tell you, it's funny. And nobody understands that. I just saw reels the other day that somebody said, no one understands how humiliating it is to you when your spouse cheats on you. It was such an embarrassment to be able to say,

[00:20:29] I want a divorce because you, I wasn't whatever for you. I wasn't good enough for you. I wasn't what you wanted. I wasn't enough to keep you there. And all of it's humiliating. It's so embarrassing. We live in a, not a small town, but we live in a town where we've lived for 30 years. Like everybody knows us. And I knew it didn't matter at that moment. It did not matter in the book. I have the

[00:20:57] quote where I say his sin is not my shortcoming. And I believe that it, what he did has nothing to do with me at the moment. I didn't know that I felt like it was about me. I don't think it's about me. I think it's all about him actually. Yeah. It is. But that was another thing that my counselor helped me work through and to get through. So was there a grieving process too? Oh yeah. Oh, there still is.

[00:21:25] I don't miss my marriage. I miss the family unit. I miss being able to all be together because that's kind of weird. It's also weird to look at any vacation and go, wonder what was really going on. I teased my friend that I had tried to repair my marriage with duct tape and social media posts

[00:21:47] because we were happy and everything was good. But even now, last Wednesday, I had a friend whose father died pretty unexpectedly. That's not true. It was kind of expected, but anyway, his father passed away the time before that his father passed away. My father was in the hospital at the same time as his. So when his father passed away, it really kind of hit me and it hit me harder than I thought

[00:22:13] it was going to hit me. And I really kind of cried all day. And I just was kind of weepy all day. And I was talking to my best friend about it. And I said, I've had, I have to learn how to self-regulate my emotions again. For so many years, I kept them bottled up and I didn't want anybody to know what I was feeling. And I didn't want anybody to know what was wrong. And I want to, didn't want anybody to ask me, why have you been crying? Or why do you look that, or why are you mad about

[00:22:43] what color the napkins are? Because I feel like I had masked all of those emotions with either everything's fine or with anger. And there, I write a, I have a blog post that goes with the book that I published. I have a blog and one of the blog posts is about angry Kathy. Because I realized I had been so angry for the last few years, just in a way I reacted to everything. And I think that's all part

[00:23:13] of the grieving, a marriage that I didn't plan it. I didn't want it. I never, I didn't plan on getting divorced. Right. I was the girl who at 15 thought you were going to date one person and get married to live the rest of your life. So I, it wasn't ever a plan. So when you say you don't miss your marriage, do you mean after you found out about all of this cheating or do you mean in general,

[00:23:36] even before that, you don't miss the relationship you had prior to? I find it hard thinking back on a time when it wasn't affected. Okay. I think it taints everything. I don't mean for it to, but I think that when I, if I can go back 10 years and it's 11 years now, so much of what was going on, there was things went behind the scenes. I didn't even realize what was going on that was still going

[00:24:04] on that I thought wasn't going on. So there was still so much secrecy and so much. I don't know how to miss that. I don't know how to miss now do do it's the family stuff. I miss Christmas morning. I miss everybody being in the same house all day. I miss everybody doing Thanksgiving. My whole family lives in the area. My sister's family, my brother's family, my mom and dad, that first Thanksgiving,

[00:24:28] because I separated in the middle of September. So that first Thanksgiving, I don't even hardly remember that Thanksgiving, but it was just me and my two kids that went to my mom's house with my brother's family. My sister's family was out of town and it was really weird to not have him there, but I didn't want him there. I will say to you, kind of like knowing my limit,

[00:24:53] the moment I knew the whole picture, it changed my feelings for him. Okay. And if you think of a where's Waldo book or an I spy book that has 8 million things on a page, but you're only seeing this much of the page, it doesn't look so bad and so scary and so awful. And then when you realize that there's a two page spread and you didn't really know that person, I have a hard time

[00:25:22] mourning for somebody I didn't know. And that's how it, that's how it feels now. I'm sure. I have been around him. I have seen him. I can be friendly. I don't want to be friends because I don't know him. I don't know who that is. I don't know who that person is that did that. Have you ever asked him why? Have you ever talked to him? No, he, we had, so we lived together from September 11th. We lived that

[00:25:50] five weeks in the house together with nobody knowing. And then I did not move out until right at the beginning of December. So we lived together for those three months. And there were times during that, that we would start to have conversations. To me, he was very dismissive of everything that he had done. To me, he was, I don't know why you're making such a big deal about this. Why can't we

[00:26:16] just try again? Oh, wow. I have not chosen to have any conversations with him in a while that have not been either with our lawyers, which was the last day that I spoke in the same room with him was in October. That's not true. And then in February, I think my youngest son bought a house and we went over one night to help him paint real fast. And we painted that night. I'm not rude to him. I don't want to, I don't really want to give him that much of an emotion. I just don't,

[00:26:45] I don't need to have him in my life. I don't know who he is. Yeah, I get that. I mean, listening to you talk, I can see that now. So did you, after the divorce, you hear a lot about friends making choices. Do you feel like you suffered that also? Like some friends fell to the wayside? Oh, oh yeah. Yes. There, that was, there were intentional losses and there were

[00:27:11] unintentional losses. I knew I had to suffer the loss of his family. That breaks my heart the most. I have had very little contact. I have had his sisters reach out and with a text early on, I've had conversations. I had to kind of let go of my nieces and my nephews and all, he has a huge family that has been very sad to me, but I understand that's their brother and their

[00:27:36] uncle. And right. And I get that. I, I, there have been a few people that I've been really surprised that they were like, yeah, I'm not going to be involved in this. So I'm not going to be involved with your life. Oh, wow. For both of you. I mean, they distance from both of you. There are people that have distanced from both of us. There are people that were friends of both of

[00:28:05] ours that, and I hate to say it like this, and I don't know how to say it politely, but chose him to stick by. And that was really surprising. It was surprising for a lot of different reasons, but I was like, okay. And what I have learned subsequently is it's okay that I've got people

[00:28:29] in my corner that, that want to call me and check on me and help me when I'm crying and help me figure out how to fix my air condition and help me figure out how to buy a bedspread and how to figure out how to set up my bank accounts. And I've got people that are there ready to be for me. I don't need to worry about the people that aren't. And really it was easier than I thought to say, okay, cool.

[00:28:59] Yeah. And I think that also had to do with, I walked away from him and wanted my value back. I wanted my self-worth back and my self-worth doesn't need to beg you to be my friend because that's not the way it should be. So how did you go about getting your self-worth back? Or did you realize it was never really gone? I realized that it wasn't gone. I had just pushed

[00:29:29] it down. I felt like outside of the house and in my professional realm and that I had a lot of control and I was, I have a business that I run now and I, for education, I do speak to schools and with an educational group and I wrote a book and I feel like everybody thought I was this in control, confident person. And in reality, I felt like all I was doing was pushing down exactly what I was

[00:29:59] feeling like and exactly what I felt and not getting in conversations that I thought would be hard to get out of or not telling my true feelings about what was going on because I didn't want people to ask questions. And when people would ask questions, like, why did you just freak out over that small thing that happened? I'd be like, it's all me. When in reality, I just didn't want them to ask because I knew that I was just angry about everything. Once I could walk away from that.

[00:30:28] And once I could sit in my own house and sit in my chair and breathe my own air, I was like, okay, now it's never going to happen again. Now I'm not going to allow that. Now I'm going to have a boundary. Now I'm going to know what my value is and through counseling and a lot of talks with friends

[00:30:54] and my sister, who is my best friend. I'm not going to allow it. I'm not going to allow that to be compromised. So I know you named your book Braver Than I Know. Is that, do you think your bravery is the biggest thing you've learned about yourself in all of this? So the joke is that I never thought that was going to be the title of the book. The joke is that my mom, every time I would talk to my mom and my parents have had a hard time with this and I don't hold that

[00:31:20] against them. A hard time with the divorce? With the divorce. That was their son for 32 years. They love him. It's very hard. And it came out of nowhere for them because they didn't know anything was wrong. But every night my mom would call me and she'd say, how are you? And I'd say, I'm doing good. And then she'd say, I'm so proud of you. You're so brave. I'm so proud of you. You're so brave. And I didn't feel brave at all. And she would say it. I'm so proud of you. You're so brave.

[00:31:45] And I was just, I was so sick of hearing her say that because I didn't feel brave. I just felt like I had to do what I had to do. And one night Mike, I was talking to my cousin on the phone and I'm like, oh, I'm so sick of her saying to me, I'm so brave. And she goes, stop. You were brave. Brave walked away. Brave didn't know where she was going to live. Brave didn't know the bill she was going to pay. Brave didn't know how the money would fall out. Brave didn't know how people would

[00:32:14] react to this. You were brave and you need to understand that that's something that you can really, you need to listen to yourself for that. And I was like, and so then the more we would do things as that year, that first year went on, I did feel more and more brave. I felt more and more like I was braver than I knew. I didn't think I would ever, I sat for 10 years because I wasn't brave.

[00:32:40] I was afraid. I didn't want to do it. And I would be willing to say to any person anywhere, you only have to be brave. The first step, you only have to be brave to take the first step because the second step is a thousand times easier, but that first step, that's a hard one. And I did feel like I was braver than I knew. That's awesome. So it really came out of kind of a joke because I was like, Oh, I know I'm so brave. So how do you feel about the freedom now?

[00:33:10] Is there a sense of freedom that you never imagined? It's interesting. One of the first weekends in my house, I called my sister and I said, Hey, I'm going to ride down to the beach with a friend and I might stay the night. We were not sure, but I'll probably be back tomorrow. And she's like, okay. And I said, well, I feel like somebody should know. I feel like I should tell somebody like, it's a very weird thing when you have been in a marriage for 32 years and all of a

[00:33:39] sudden nobody knows what you're actually doing all day long, except you. And I don't give her life updates every time I do something now, by the way, but it was the strangest thing doing that. Now there's good and bad things of it. I would love to be able, it gets lonely. And I don't mean like, I mean like lonely for silly things, like watching a TV show and laughing and realizing I'm the only

[00:34:05] one sitting in the den laughing about it. Or my boys are soccer boys. We loved the world cup. We were totally, I was totally into it. I was watching soccer. The number of times that I sat in my own house, screaming and cheering at the TV by myself for a soccer game. I mean, it was a little bit sad. I'm not gonna lie, but there are, I would like to share that with somebody. So there's that kind of a freedom. I like the freedom of doing what I want to do and going where I want to go and doing that kind of thing. But there is still this kind of, I don't know. I wish there was somebody to kind

[00:34:35] of share some of that with. That being said, I don't want to pet. My kids tried to throw a dog on me when I first moved out and I'm like, absolutely not. I want to be able to go. My best friend, who's not related to me because my sister is my best, lives in Phoenix. And I want to be able to go to Phoenix when I want to go to Phoenix. I want to be able to go to wherever when I want to go to wherever. Like I want to be able to go and do, and if I have a couple of friends that have houses at the beach, and if I want to go down and spend the night, I don't want to have to worry about

[00:35:03] it. So there is that nice kind of freedom. That's interesting that I never thought I would, I mean, there are times when I feel like I, this is what it probably would have been at 24 if I'd ever moved out of my parents' house before I got married. But without a roommate, I did move out of my parents before I got married. But it is, it's interesting. So what do you think the biggest difference between you at that age and you now is?

[00:35:28] I have always been, starting from the time I had my very first boyfriend when I was 14 years old, I always felt like I needed a boyfriend, which sounds very immature, but at 14, that's what you are. So I went from boyfriend to boyfriend to boyfriend. And I went from boyfriend to dating somebody in college long-term, and then breaking up to meeting my now ex-husband, dating and getting married.

[00:35:55] I didn't, wasn't really comfortable being alone doing things. Like I always felt like I needed somebody else there. I don't feel like that now. I feel like I'm okay and I can handle it. I called a friend one night and who is my friend to help me with anything in my condo. And I called him and I said, I need you to come to my house with a drill. I've been trying to put these stupid curtains up and I can't get them up by myself. I don't know what's going on. And I'm so mad because this was going to be my project by myself.

[00:36:21] So he came over and he's like, okay, first of all, the problem is your drill bits are terrible. That's why you can't do this project. So you're going to use my drill bits and you're going to do it. And I'm not going to help you. And I'm like, okay. So then I took care of it. Well, then the following week I had bought a nightstand on Amazon that came like an Ikea packaging because it had 9 million pieces and a 12 page book of directions. And I thought,

[00:36:49] I'm doing this by myself. And I did. And I was very proud of my, and I posted it on Facebook and on Instagram. And I'm like, I did this myself. So I think that that is the difference in me then and now is that if it so happens that there's somebody else in my life, in my future, that's okay. It will add to what I am. But if there's not, it's okay. Cause I'm okay with who I am without somebody. And I don't think I've ever been that person before.

[00:37:18] So are you still, have you still distance yourself from caring what other people think? Cause I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with regardless divorce, no divorce, but. Yeah. Yes. I have come to realize, first of all, the people that are caring about what you're doing, you shouldn't be worrying about anyway. And the other thing that I've come to learn is that most people are not worrying about you to begin with. So I, I would be very hesitant to tell anybody to

[00:37:48] worry about what anybody else thinks of them. I have gotten involved in my church. I've gotten involved with a Bible study. I have my faith. I feel like is such a big part of my life now. That I don't worry about what anybody else is thinking about me. And I'm pretty excited with what's going on now. I felt, and I don't know how to say it, except for that. I felt a calling to write the journal. It wasn't supposed to be faith-based. When I first started it, it was just

[00:38:16] going to be a journal. And it looked really like, in my head, it was kind of like a kindergarten workbook. Cause I've made a bunch of those. And so that was easy. And I just kept having this, oh, you should add this scripture and it works perfect. Or, oh, I was from the moment that I left from the moment that I decided today is the day, which by the way, was September 11th, ironically, but no joke. But the day that that when I decided it, I started listening to K love on the

[00:38:44] radio. And I listened to K love radio. It's positive and encouraging. It's contemporary Christian music. And I listened to it every day. It's all I listened to. That really helped me. Like I can't take, so part of what I did in the journal is there's a song for every week. So it's a 52 week journal. And for each of the 52 weeks, there are seven things to do. So you could do like one little thing a day. One of the things is a song to listen to that kind of goes with what you're doing,

[00:39:11] because it meant so much to me when, when I was doing that. So I just kind of leaned into, I think I'm really supposed to write it like this. And I think I'm really supposed to add these Christian songs. And I think I'm really supposed to talk about my faith. And it really wasn't where I thought it was going to be, but it's where I ended up. So have you reconciled things with God? As far as I know, you said you were mad at him over the Christian counselor. And I know you've talked

[00:39:36] about how things didn't work out the way you prayed for them to work out. So have you reconciled that? And how did you do that? I mean, I think through Bible study and through talking to my counselor and through that, I do think God has a plan. I also truly believe God's plan can only go as far as men's desires. So holding God accountable for what my husband did wasn't really fair. Someone can say

[00:40:05] that they are a Christian counselor and not give Christian values. So I can't really hold that against him. Literally last Saturday, I think it was, and I meant to bring my Bible up here to look at it right before we started. Last Saturday in our Bible study, there was a scripture and it said something like, you can't just, oh, what was it? You can't just believe in my, believe that I have good things

[00:40:30] for you and then not wait to see how the plan follows through. It was, and I don't know what the exact scripture is. And I wish I did it's downstairs, but it was something like, you know, you say you have faith in my plan for you. And then you get very impatient in waiting for my plan to unfold. I'm at that point now. I'm kind of like, okay, okay, let's get some plans rolling out here. And I

[00:40:53] think God's kind of like, we got time, just breathe a little. And so I do think that it's coming. I had a dream the other night. So one of the things that was affected terribly by my divorce was my sleeping habits. I just couldn't sleep at night. It was too quiet or something. I don't know. I would get in bed thinking I was tired that I'd be laying there for three, three hours in the night. And it would be, my sleep has been terrible. And over the course of the last month, probably I've gotten into a

[00:41:21] really great sleep cycle. Well, last Wednesday night, I slept so good and I had a dream and I remembered my dream completely. And I couldn't tell you the last time I had a dream that I could remember. And I think it's because I just haven't been getting good REM sleep. So, but I, I literally in this dream, which made complete sense to me, which in my dream was kind of like a Hallmark movie where I had met someone and it was just this, this whole thing unfolding, like in this perfect

[00:41:47] little way it was supposed to. And then I woke up and the first words out of my mouth in my empty home that I said out loud was really God, Nebraska. Because in the dream, when I met this person, he, I learned that he was from Nebraska. And I was like, Nebraska, I know no one from Nebraska. So it was just so funny because I thought, okay, I have to wait for Nebraska. So this is just kind of

[00:42:14] been my mantra the last week. Okay. I'm just going to wait for Nebraska because it just seemed to be in that it was going to be okay. And I've just kind of had these moments of, it is going to be okay. And that's kind of what I feel like I'd held my breath for so long that sometimes you lose the value of the exhale. And that's what this last two years has been. It's been an exhale where I've come

[00:42:43] to trust myself and trust in God. Do you think that any of the divorce was partially your responsibility too? Or do you truly feel like it was his indiscretions as he calls it? I think I should have called him on his stuff more often. And I should have been more aggressive. And the only, and that's not the right word, but I don't want to, I was way too passive.

[00:43:11] I was way too, well, if that's what you're going to do, I'm going to pretend like it didn't happen. I'm going to pretend I'm going to ignore it. I'm going to, and I don't know why, because that's so not me. Cause I am such a talker and I talk everything out and I am, we'll talk about anything till you're blue in the face. So I do think that I should have been a little less passive as far as that goes. I also think as many times as people say, you should talk about everything and talk it out and talk it out and talk it out. I did not do the whole, you shouldn't go to sleep angry.

[00:43:40] Cause I probably wouldn't have gone to sleep for three years. So I don't know that that's the case, but I feel like once I knew he had looked outside of the marriage, I found it very hard to try and say, pick me, pick me, pick me every time I was turning around. And so I kind of was like, okay, if I just ignore this and I just pretend that I have this great life with great friends, going on great trips and doing all these things and posted on social media that ever,

[00:44:10] that nobody will ever know that I'm miserable. And I, I should have never allowed that for myself. Do you think if he would have just had the one incident and then truly have changed and asked for forgiveness that you could have dealt with that, but it was the repeated over and over? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I had a friend whose husband said to me when he found out about everything, he said,

[00:44:38] if he'd made a mistake and you guys had healed your marriage and he spent the rest of his life making it up to you, I would have been okay with that. But the fact that he repeatedly did this and I didn't know about all the repeated until after. And it's so hard because the moment you have that moment of clarity, everything else becomes hindsight. So it's hard to say what you should've,

[00:45:04] would've, could've. Yeah, I'm sure. I was just wondering if you feel like you could have gotten over it or not. I don't know that you ever get over it, but you could have dealt with it. I think if it had been one time and one time only, and I feel like it was just coming to a head with silly things, with not prioritizing time together and not being, he was very demonstrative about how much he loved me, but it didn't feel that way when we were alone in the house.

[00:45:34] I'll just give you this one little example. My birthday before we separated, I was laying in bed the night before my birthday and he said, Hey, why don't you make a pork roast for dinner tonight, tomorrow night? And I said, nothing would make me happier than to make a pork roast for you on my birthday. Oh wow. And he said, Oh yeah. Tomorrow's your birthday. We'd been celebrating birthdays for

[00:45:58] 32 years. Right. So I also think I was the one brave enough to do it. And I think that he's probably had moments of, I wish I was the brave, the one brave enough to do it. So I don't want it to seem like everything was perfect except for the affairs. I mean, I think, no, I wasn't trying to insinuate that. I'm just asking questions. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Oh, I know. But I, and I do, I think if it had been one time and we could have worked our way through it and if we'd had a better counselor,

[00:46:28] maybe we would have. So do you think when Nebraska shows up, you're going to have a little bit more scrutiny as far as. Oh, that's the big joke now because my friends are so funny. So I have gone on a couple of dates and it's awful. It's just awful. And I've told them that my next book is going to be about dating in your fifties because that will be the comedy of the year. Oh my God.

[00:46:54] It's just awful. But I will say to my sister, Oh, he's got gross shoes. And she's like, you can change his shoes. I'm like, I shouldn't have to change his shoes. Or I remember walking into, I walked into Walmart one night and I just started crying in the middle of Walmart. And I, I left and went to the car and I called my sister and I'm like, I just had to leave Walmart. I'm crying. She's like, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, this old man walked into Walmart in front of me and had an old

[00:47:22] man jeans and he had an old man phone clip and he had old man tennis shoes. And I don't want to be with an old man. I don't want to be with that. And she was like, Oh my God, get a grip. So I do think that Nebraska is going to have to have it across his forehead or something, but that it was funny. And that's now my new quote is I have to wait for Nebraska, but we'll see. So tell us one of the funniest dating situations.

[00:47:49] Well, one guy I went out on a date with said he was six one on the profile. And when we got into the restaurant, I said to my sister, if he's six one, that means I'm six feet tall because he I'm five, six. And he was barely taller than me. And, but he like, all he could talk about the whole dinner with how much money he had and how many contracts he had and how much of this, and I can pay for anything. And I was like, Oh, I was like, okay. I think he's trying to compensate another guy.

[00:48:19] And I don't know why it was the first date I had been on. And this guy wanted to meet at the bar at Olive Garden. And I should have known, I should have known where this was going, but I really thought six o'clock on a Tuesday, I'll go to Olive Garden, eat some pasta. What's the worst that can happen? So I get there and he says to me, I'm sitting in the bar. I ordered a coffee and I ordered you water because I figured no one could be offended by water. Oh wow. And I said, well, can I order an iced

[00:48:47] tea? He goes, well, I guess. Oh wow. I ordered an iced tea. I was in the restaurant for 42 minutes. We never left the bar. I told him that when the guy came back, I would pay for my iced tea. And then, and he said, so what do you think about getting together again? And I'm like, it's just been, it's been interesting. But so where do you find Goodman if it's not, I don't know, church and the

[00:49:13] Bible study. Where are they? I don't know because I try. Okay. So my joke on the apps is you can't have a shirtless picture. You can't have a gym picture. So the four pictures that guys put are no shirt in the gym with a baseball hat and then either with a motorcycle or a fish. That's it. Those are your two, those are your picks. And I'm like, so it's just going to have to happen. And I'm going

[00:49:40] to have to just meet somebody organically is what we say. But so where did you meet Nebraska in the dream? I don't know. We seem to be somewhere very familiar for both of us. So it wasn't like the location was the big deal. It was just funny. I was like, really God, Nebraska? Because I'm in Virginia, by the way, like we're not close to Nebraska. Yeah, but he could be in Virginia visiting

[00:50:06] family. He could be. And you meet at the grocery store. I mean, you don't know. You don't know. But he's going to have to say, hello, my name is, and I'm from Nebraska before I'm going to be like, oh. That's funny. Yeah. So do you want to tell us a little bit about your book before we wrap up today? Absolutely. Absolutely. So like I said, it's a 52 week journal. And just to kind of show you,

[00:50:34] so one, one page is like my reflection of what's going on. This one says, don't get stuck in the wallow. And it's about the weeks that you really do just have a bad week. And it's okay to wallow. You just can't get stuck there. And the really funny part of that story was, I'd had a really bad day of like crying. And so the next day, I dressed up and got myself all looking good. And I felt really good about myself. And I sent myself to a picture to my sister. And I said, I feel he's not going to

[00:51:01] win. That's what I said. And she was like, where are you going? And I went nowhere. I don't have anywhere to be. Then the next page is a Bible verse that goes with it. And there's a coloring page because like, they're all different coloring pages that because coloring was something that really helped me. Like when my mind would go crazy, I could sit down and like color. And I didn't have to think about anything else except coloring. Then the next, there's some song lyrics from a song.

[00:51:30] There's reflection questions for you to answer to kind of, you know, what you're doing. And then every other week, one week it says, how are you feeling today? And it's got like a, at a closing prayer, but because for a long time, the answers were bad, sad, bad, sad, mad, sad, bad. Every other week, it says, what are you grateful for? So, and then it has a prayer. So I figured I had to make people be

[00:51:56] grateful. So it's 52 weeks. It's, it starts with knowing my limit and it ends with being brave and finding the joy again and slowly going through the process of learning who I was and also who I wanted to be. And I feel like I have put my heart and soul in the pages and I've gotten really great feedback I've had people say to me, Oh, this really meant a lot. I figured, you know, exactly what I'm

[00:52:25] thinking. I love that you put this down. I had another lady say to me, I can't find a journal that I want. And so this is a great for new beginnings. And I was like, Oh, it's at, it's not just about divorce. It's about any new beginning. So it could be a new location or a new job, or I had another friend who had a medical crisis that created a new normal in her life. So she was kind of starting

[00:52:49] over that way. This particular lady said to me, yeah, my new beginning is my husband's incarcerated. So I have to figure out how to live with that. And I'm like, Ooh. So it's been a labor of love, but it was something that I felt like there was just this conviction that women who are starting over at our age need something too. And so that's why I love it. I love it. I think it's got a lot of

[00:53:16] great things in it. And I'm very honest. I'm honest about how I feel about things. I'm honest, how I felt on any given day or what I felt like I was going through and how hard decisions were or how easy decisions were. So I, I don't bad mouth my ex. It's not, don't buy it. If you think you're going to find a salacious novel about a dirty divorce, cause it's not that I could probably write that,

[00:53:40] but I'm not going to, it would probably be a better seller, but, but I won't do that. I won't do that because of my boys. That has always my, my whole thing through all of this is it's still their dad. And I don't want to ruin that for sure. And they're very protective of me. They will say to me, Hey, are you going to come to the soccer game? Just let you know. Dad's going to be there. And I'm like, okay. And then I know I don't have to sit with them. It's fine, but they're, they are very protective

[00:54:09] of me and they check in on me and kind of take care of me. So that's nice. So if someone's listening today and they're in the middle of their mess still, and they don't feel brave enough to get out, what would you say to that person? Take the step. It's one step. Take one step towards something new. Take one step. When I was in education, there was a quote years ago with how do you eat an elephant?

[00:54:36] And it's one bite at a time. And that's, it's kind of what being brave is. How do you know that you're brave? You take the one step and I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that sometimes that step doesn't feel like it's off a cliff. Right. But I also think when you take one step, the next step feels braver and the next step feels easier. Just sending the text. I can remember sending the text,

[00:55:00] my hands shaking and my fingertips felt numb. Like when I texted, I just need you to know when you get home from your trip, you will have a separate bedroom and we are getting a divorce. Just sending that text. And I knew that was my cliff. That was my step, but it had to be that step. I didn't blow it up that day. I didn't move out in a huff. I didn't. Now I was not fearful of the living arrangement

[00:55:30] in any way. I would never tell somebody to say somewhere that they're not safe or they don't feel comfortable. We had a big enough house that I said, this is now your bedroom. This is now your bathroom. You're over here. You know, we could do in the state of Virginia, you can be separated while living together under certain guidelines. So it worked for us. I also knew if I kicked him out that paying rent would come out of all the money that we were eventually going to have to split.

[00:55:57] So that was kind of a waste of money that, that I was afraid of money. See, I was so afraid of money that I didn't want him to move out because I didn't want him to waste money on rent. So it's taking the step and find a good counselor. That's great advice. Yeah. Well, I thank you for being with us today and sharing your story and the wisdom that you've gained and or already had maybe with us. Yeah, maybe, but thank you. I have really enjoyed it. Yeah. I think one last thing. Sure. So this

[00:56:25] whole term has come into the lexicon of our generation, which is a gray divorce and a gray divorce is this new thing that they're calling it. And it represents women getting divorced in their fifties. And older, it is the largest growing number of people getting divorced. As of right now, it's 39% of all divorces are that age group. There are more of me out there and it's just about,

[00:56:53] I deserve more. I deserve more than looking over my shoulder or wondering when the next shoe was going to fall. Cause I've lived like that for a long time or trying to pretend everything was okay. And I didn't deserve it any longer. And so that's what made me take that first step and send that text and not back down. And I will tell you that from that text until this day, right now, today,

[00:57:21] I have not screamed one time at him about his behaviors. I knew I was done. I wasn't going to yell about it. I wasn't going to argue about it. I was done. I hit my limit. What was his reaction when he came home after receiving that text? Did he have a reaction? He said a couple of times, let me explain. No, we'll talk when we get home. No, let me explain. No. And when he walked in the door, I said, let me show you where your bedroom is. I walked upstairs.

[00:57:51] I said, here's all your things. I've moved your things. Here's this come downstairs to the Island and we'll talk. And he came downstairs to the Island kitchen and I opened up the book and I read the three paragraphs about the limit, about knowing your limit. Oh, wow. And I said, I have hit my limit. I will not yell about this. We are getting divorced and I have a meeting with a lawyer. Oh, wow. Like I, I just, I, that's what happens when you hit your limit.

[00:58:17] And I just, I wasn't going to yell about it. There was a couple of times when he would say things to me and I would go and look, you probably can figure it out. I can talk to anybody, anytime, anywhere for as long as you want me to talk. I love to talk. It's what I'm good at, but he would say things to me where I would just stare at him. Like, and I would just walk out of the room because I would be like, so incredulous by what he would say. Like he would say, well, why can't we just stay together and

[00:58:43] give me one more chance? Like, cause I think you've had enough. Like, I just, I wasn't going to yell about it. I just wasn't. Do you think that's because like you said earlier, your feelings had changed at some point. It was just, yeah. Yeah. I just knew I was not going to accept the way that I had lived. I wasn't going to do that any longer. At some point. I just wasn't. I don't know if it was knowing about

[00:59:09] the law or reading about somebody knowing their limit or hearing the song that said you've got this or, or what it was, or if it was God smacking my forehead and saying, pay attention. I had, I'd had enough. I knew life could be better. I knew it could be better. And I will tell you on my lowest day in the last two years, I have not regretted the decision. Not a moment. You never thought like,

[00:59:38] what have I done here? Nothing. I didn't because I just felt like I had given up so much the prior 10 years. And I had made so many concessions and I had made so many excuses and I had ignored things that I shouldn't ignore. And I had seen things I shouldn't have seen that he doesn't deserve me. Right. I have said that I will not tell any more lies. If somebody asked me questions,

[01:00:06] I'm going to tell them exactly. I'm going to tell them. I've also told people, be very careful if you ask me questions because you may not want the answers that I'm going to give you. And I have said that about his family. If his family ever came to me and said, what's going on? What happened? I would be very cautious and say to them, be careful if you ask me that question because you might not like the answer. And that's what I kind of told my parents, you know, my parents know at first they didn't know as much of the story. Now they know a little

[01:00:34] bit more, but I mean, it's been hard. It's been really hard for them, but they were also raised in an age where divorce was, and that's been really hard, but that's why you have people around you that say you got this. Right. And I think part of it, like you said, they didn't know. Right. And so they're still loving this person. Right. He's been their son for 32 years. Right. And now I said, there's a split and that, that is hard. Right. And I, and there was a lot of grace given to them

[01:01:03] because of that. I knew they had to work their way through that. I didn't expect them the day that I decided to be the day that they decided, like, cause I had a way more information than they did. Right. Contrary to my sister who was like ready to fight the day. She was like, we're going to, and I'm like, relax. Like she's my ride or die and she's the youngest. So she reacts like the youngest and she's like ready to like, what did I'm like, we're going to do this calmly. We're going to do

[01:01:30] this nicely. So not that I haven't texted her and said, and you know, but you also have to have those people though, that you can like. Well, it's awesome that you have somebody. They're in your corner and you don't even really know it until they're in there. I had a girl text me and she said to me one day out of nowhere, and it was a friend that I had, but I wouldn't have called her my top 10. And I don't mean that ugly, but we didn't spend a lot of time together. And she texted

[01:02:00] me and she said, I want you to know you have friends who will fight for you in rooms that you are not in. And I said, thank you. Oh, wow. Those are the friends you need. It's not the friends that decided to walk away. That's pretty awesome. It's okay. I don't, and I'm not mad at them. It's okay. Right. But I need the friends who will fight for me. So yeah. Amen to that. Especially when you're not in the room. I mean, that speaks volumes. It does. And it, it really, I mean, you know,

[01:02:29] it was one of those things that I started crying again. I'm not going to lie at the first year. There's a lot of crying because it was also new and so scary. And I've never been to a lawyer before. That is scary. I mean, I've never done any of that stuff before. Yeah. There was a whole lot of firsts. I used to joke that this was, I was, it was my year of firsts at 58. You know, you don't expect to have that many firsts at 58. Well, I look forward to having you back when you meet Nebraska and

[01:02:56] yes. I'll let you know when I meet Nebraska. You're welcome to come back before then, but I just bet we definitely want to hear Nebraska. I know. So maybe, maybe we'll see. Maybe he just likes Nebraska football. I don't know, but we'll see. Thank you so much for having me. I have really enjoyed it. I have too. Thank you so much. Been very enlightening and entertaining too. So thank you.

[01:03:22] Thank you. I do like to talk. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. As we wrap up this episode, what stayed with me from Kathy's story is that bravery doesn't always look bold or fearless. Sometimes bravery is simply taking the first step when you have absolutely no idea what comes next. Kathy said you only have to be brave to take the first step because the second step is a thousand times easier. Whether you're facing the end of a relationship, an unexpected

[01:03:51] new beginning, or simply a season of life you never planned for, I hope Kathy's story reminds you that you may be far more capable and courageous than you realize. If you'd like to learn more about Kathy or her book, Braver Than I Knew, you'll find everything in today's show notes. If this episode encouraged you, please subscribe and leave a review and share it with someone who may need it today. Until next time, remember, even in the middle of life's greatest struggles, there is still beauty to be found in the

[01:04:20] mess. As always, I hope this episode helps at least one person. And with that, I hope you have a blessed week, my friend. Thank you for listening to The Beauty and the Mess. If you enjoyed what you heard, please share it with a friend. And if you haven't already, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast on your favorite pod player. If you have any questions or comments, any topic ideas you would like to hear

[01:04:46] about, or you think you would be a great guest on the show, you can reach me directly at thebeautyandthemess.com. Thanks for listening.